Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dado · 06-17-2004, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Midge

Christian have been set free from the law.

there was nothing from which to be set free: the "law" never applied to anyone but Jews.

Quote:

The law exists to show us there is a problem and no one is perfect.

not to Jews it doesn't. and since it's their law...

Quote:

The law applies to everyone...

not true now, and has never been true. in fact is it *so* untrue that a fair number of hard core Jews considered gentiles to be unrighteous if they adopted the law for themselves.

Jinto · 06-17-2004, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Midge

Perhaps I could try stating this more positively:

Christian have been set free from the law.

Yes, that's what I said.

Quote:

The law exists to show us there is a problem and no one is perfect.

God is not perfect then? Or does he not qualify as someone?

(yes, I know what you mean, but nitpicking is fun

)

Quote:

If something is not done about this imperfection then we are going to wind up dead.

Wouldn't it have been easier to construct the universe to allow for a margin of error without us winding up dead?

Quote:

Not just the body but dead in spirit as well.

I assume that by "dead in spirit" you mean hell? Because that would seem to be an artificial situation - y'know, God creating hell in the first place. Otherwise, I would appreciate you clarifying this point.

Quote:

The law applies to everyone because the same measure will be used to grade everyone.

Except Christians, who have been set free from the law.

Quote:

However Jesus death and resurection* has four different effects

1. that the difference between what we are and what we should be has been made up because Christ paid the deficit,

A few things strike me as rather silly here - first, if God created us perfectly, then how is it that we are something other than what we should be in the first place? Some Christians say this is the result of the "fall," but this makes no sense either, as a perfect being wouldn't have fallen in the first place. Second, and more importantly, why did Christ only pay the deficit for those who believe in him? I mean, if someone else pays your parking tickets, then would a fair court charge you anyway if you don't know those tickets have already been paid?

Quote:

2. sacrifice creates access to God the source of life our wrong had cut us off from,

And the Jews had no access to God then? That seems rather silly, considering that they are allegedly God's chosen people.

Quote:

3. Death was defeated and has been over come as demonstrated by the resurrection,

Then why are people still dying?

Quote:

4. Christ's life and death serves as an example to us to follow that if we were to follow would put an end to much of the suffering for it demonstrates to us how humanity aspires to all.

We should call ourselves Gods, stir up religous dissent, and set man at variance against his father, and daughter against her mother, and daughter in law against mother in law (Mat. 10:35)? That seems rather dumb.

Quote:

Of course nothing we do could affect the outcome of these affects, nothing we could do would make us worthy of benefiting from these affects, nothing we could do could acheive the same affect as Christ's death and resurrection.

Affects? Pardon me, but what is an affect? You couldn't possibly mean
effect, because the two words don't even look the same, so what in the IPU's name are you talking about?

Quote:

This applies to everyone- including me.

Um... God won't apply Christ's "sacrifice" to anyone who doesn't believe in and worship him (God or Jesus, doesn't matter since they're supposedly the same person)? That is hardly applying the same rules to everyone.

Quote:

* NOTE I think it is wrong to talk about the death and resurrection as just "Christ's Sacrifice". It is more than that, as I summarise in the four affects that I describe.

Effects. They are effects. The effect of your constant use of the wrong word is that I am getting very frustrated.

And I agree that Christ's sacrifice cannot be called such, but only because he didn't sacrifice anything - he got to come back to life later on. A real sacrifice would be if he had stayed dead - at least then he would have lost something.

SteveF · 06-17-2004, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Midge

sacrifice creates access to God the source of life our wrong had cut us off from

What sacrifice?

Biff the unclean · 06-17-2004, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinto

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Now about that plastic "Jesus fish" on the back of the mini-van...

Biff the unclean · 06-17-2004, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveF

What sacrifice?

Come over here to the edge of the volcano and we will explain it to you.

Brain cloud? What's a brain cloud?

dado · 06-18-2004, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveF

What sacrifice?

it's the x'ian fantasy that until Jesus there was no way to get G-d's forgiveness without offering up blood sacrifice - which is a load of donkey dung - Judaism never required blood sacrifice for atonement. apart from even that, forgiveness for transgressions against fellow humans couldn't even be gotten from G-d - that is something you had to seek from the person(s) wronged.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.