J-D

There's nothing there about rewards, nor is there any explicit reference to 'satire'.I have no idea and doubt it makes any difference.

patcleaver

What is the evidence of Dura Europos?

1) a depiction of two women visiting a tomb

2) a depiction of a guy with a magic wand, another guy carrying a bed and a third guy lying in bed.

3) a depiction of three people in a boat, and two other people wading in or walking on the water beside the boat.

4) a depiction of a man carrying a sheep over his shoulders.

5) a fragment that said:

· [ ]ee and Salome a[ ] the women
· [ ] those who followed him from
· [ ]ee to see the cr{....} And it was
· [ ]y of preparation [....] Sabbath was dawn-
· [ ] And as it was becoming [ ]ate on the prep-
· [ ] which is before the sabbath, there came
· [ ] a councilman [ ]
· [ ] from Erinmathaia, a city of
· [ ]a, Jo[ ] by name, good, right-
· [ ] who was a disciple of Je[ ], but in
· [ ]ing on account of fear of the
· [ ]s, and this man was awaiting
· [ ] k[ ] of G[ ]d. This man was
· not [ ]ing to the c[ ]

6) a Jewish synagogue with extensive depictions of Jewish themes.

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What other facts do we know that are relevant to whether any of these objects are Christian or not?

1) We have reason to believe that there were a large number of pagans including Roman solders in the city.

2) We know that 4th century Christians adopted a large number of pre-existing Jewish depictions and Pagan depictions. For example, the Christian Madonna and child were often indistinguishable from earlier pagan Madonna and child depictions. Also, Christian good Shepard depictions were often indistinguishable from earlier pagan good Sheppard depictions.

3) Women visit tombs all the time. You and I do not know that two women visiting a tomb was a common pagan or Jewish theme or not. I do not recall seeing any early Christian depictions of this in the 4th or 5th century.

4) You and I do not know if the mural depicts wading to get into or out of a boat or walking on water, and we do not know if walking on water was a common pagan theme or not.

5) We do not know whether the fragment was actually found in Dura-Europos or was purchased from an antiquities dealer. 1933 was before many modern archeological practices and precautions were commonly used, and there was a lot of motivation to claim that important archeological discoveries were made at the site. Many discoveries made at similar sites have turned out to be forgeries.

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The fragment is not convincing. Also, I could not find any evidence that Erinmathaia is a real city.

The healer has a magic wand. In the 4th and 5th century Jesus is often depicted using a magic wand to do his physical (non-medical non-exorcism) miracles, but when he cures diseases or performs exorcisms, he was never depicted with a wand. I think other healers were often depicted with magic wands at the time.

The only evidence that I think is important is the depiction of wading in or walking on water. However, people wading in the water near the shore is the only way to get between a boat and the shore, so such a depiction is not at all surprising. Even if you could show that this is a depiction of walking on water, that is a very easy magic trick to perform, and there is no reason to think that it was identified with Jesus more than any other magicians of the time.

MM claims that Christianity was invented by Constantine, and he does not consider the Gnostics and followers of Arius to be Christians. So under MM's theory, Christian presumably means that you agree with everything in the Nicene creed or 325.

You have not shown that anyone in Dura-Europos believed in everything in the Nicene creed or 325. How does any of the evidence show that anyone believes in any of the articles of the Nicene creed or 325?

spin

The fragment is being misrepresented. You have to indicate that STA, IH and QW were all indicated as sacred words with a line over them. They are not the results of lacunae. They are means of indicating the religious significance of the words, as can be seen in the fragments from Oxyrhynchus and later fragments.

Uh-huh.

Cite references and then we can talk.

Cite examples of it in iconography.

First look at the legs and feet and forget the first part. Second, show me an alternative to what seems to be a well-documented christian narrative.

"[W]e" is the wrong pronoun. Look at the first page of the link for the fragment in the o.p.

Scraping.

Remove the glue between your eyelids.

At least you've dropped the earlier stupidity about "god's city" or whatever. What makes you think Ramoth wasn't a real city? Perhaps Josephus is wrong when he mentions it, Aramathe, in AJ 9.105.

Inventive, but false.

The glue is showing.

You are just parading the same disjointed lack of response you started with. Try to separate the frescoes and their themes. Try to make them seem something else. You can't deal with the healing of the paralytic and the order to pick up his bed and walk. You simply aren't credible. Hey, perhaps it was from some other tradition.

You must deal with all of them together:

1. the two walking on water with the boat present;
2. the paralytic on the bed, being healed, and carrying away his bed;
3. the women to the tomb;
4. the good shepherd;
5. the baptismal font;
6. David and Goliath; and
7. Adam and Eve.

Obviously Jewish context, obviously christian.

Perhaps you could paint in the shore for us.

If you accept that texts were written before Eusebius, then Acts shows that the term existed before Eusebius and therefore had significance before then.

I don't have to touch the Nicene creed. That's your straw man. You sleep with it. I just have to show that there are indications of christianity before Eusebius. That done, all the rest here is time wasting.


spin

Sheshbazzar

An obvious answer, yes, however one that would also automatically exclude those taking that route from being partakers in all of those wonderful and desirable
-promises- and -blessings- that are found within the writings of the Jewish religion.
The motive would be to be able to attain to a claim to those -promises- and -blessings- vouchsafed to the gentiles (nations) that would "join themselves unto His people Israel", and so be "built in the midst of Israel", His chosen.
So an alternative gentile religion was developed, one set at permanently marginalizing the Jews and their religion, thus leading to the centuries of anti-semitism that continue right to this present day.
What exists now, under christian dominated theology, places the religion of the Jews, and the nation of Israel in an inferior position, contrary to all of those promises specifically made to the nation of Israel, and to the Jewish (religion) people.

J-D

That makes no sense. People who rejected the Jewish religion would not believe in the promises held out in the Jewish scriptures.

spamandham

If you can demonstrate this to be true, it would be the first significant positive evidence of your hypothesis, IMHO.

spamandham

Going back to the OP to review the frescos again, I just realized something that may be significantly out of order in this picture, if it's a picture of the two Mary's visiting the tomb.

What's the box?

spin

Mk 16:1


spin

Ben C Smith

Compare.

Again.

Ben.

Sheshbazzar

Your response makes no sense. The early gentiles of the 3rd, 2nd, and 1st centuries B.C.that read The LXX, and desired to partake of the promises-, and the -blessings- therein, yet resisted the call to circumcision, and to converting to the Jewish religion, and disregarded all the rules, and would not submit to that authority Scripturally vested only, and exclusively in The Jewish Priesthood.
These, and latter called "Christian's", have long rejected The Laws, and the practices of the JEWISH religion, yet have always been ready to glom onto, and claim to believe, and to be "fellow heirs to the -promises-" held out in the Jewish Scriptures, all the while refusing to live by The Laws, and The Rules and The Regulations of that (despised) JEWISH religion.
A clue, J-D, The Jewish "religion" is NOT "Christianity",
And "Christianity" is NOT the "Jewish religion"