Ratel

Just for the record I don't follow the thinking that Jesus was a rip off of any particular pagan diety or hero. Such similarities as there are, IMHO, between Jesus and any particular diety or hero is because ancient people generally all had similar ideas of what one would expect from a god or demi-god. Okay.

What is the distinction between the Persian Mithra and Roman Mithras. I've read a couple of apologetic works that use as a proof that Mithraism could not have influenced Christianity the fact that the earliest Mithraeum in Rome dates to 80 AD (or sometime post-Jesus).

My understanding is that the cult was first introduced into the Roman world from Cilicia- the area in which Tarsus lies.

1. Was the Cilician Mithras and Mithraism closer to the Persian or Roman versions, or was it a species of its own?

2. How long was Mithraism practiced in Cilicia?

3. What significance is the fact that Paul came from Tarsus, whence the Mithraic cult supposedly entered Rome? Is it possible that he was in some way influenced by the Cilician belief system in formulating his version of Christianity?

Hmmm, that's all I can come up with at the moment.

Boro Nut

Presumably Not?

Boro Nut

Roger Pearse

It's an interesting example of the power of similar words to lead people to suppose connection.

The first scholar to amass the evidence was Franz Cumont, in his two volume Textes et Monuments..., ca. 1906(?). He presumed the two were connected, and wrote a great deal of material based on this, much of it speculative and drawing parallels with Christianity.

However in the 1950's scholars began to question this, and the whole structure of Persian Mithra=Roman Mithras was overthrown.

One of the key reasons is that the cult of Mithras is marked by a very distinctive iconography and system of distinctive cult temples underground (Mithraea). But none of these exist in Persia! It is therefore very hard to suppose this is a Persian cult that spead into Rome. Likewise the earliest archaeological material is from the late 1st century (Mithras being best known from the archaeology), fanning out from Rome. The only literary evidence for the cult existing before then is a statement in the second century writer Plutarch Life of Pompey that the Cilician pirates in 68BC worshipped Mithras. I read in Prof. Manfred Clauss The Roman cult of Mithras that this is supposed by a mistake, since the cult of Perseus was very strong in Cilicia and the two deities have some similarities. Thus the modern conclusion that the cult was invented in Rome ca. 50 AD, as a fake 'Persian' cult.

No-one today really knows, IMHO.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Clivedurdle

I thought this thread was going to discuss the teacher of righteousness...

Ratel

I've read something similar, that the Persian cult had only the name in common, and I suppose that must be the case, so I guess if there is anything to it it would be from the Cilician practice of the cult. I think if there is a parallel with the Jesus tale, it would be that Mithras is conceived as a universal saviour identified with the Logos. But I'll bet saying even that would be controversial. The Persians did have an idea of a Cosmic Saviour in the "Saoshyant", IIRC. Does anyone know where I can read about the Persian (non-Roman) Mithra cult and if their version of Mithra was in anyway related to the Persian Saoshyant?

I read that Mitra (another version still?) is mentioned in a Hittite treaty, so that would put him in Asia Minor long before 68 BC, but like you said, the religion of Mithras is something altogether different.

I see some similarities in the iconography between the pose of Mithras slaying the Bull and the Constellation Perseus' basic pose and position relative to the constellation Taurus, so there does appear to be some connection, though I don't see a parallel in the mythology other than the common themes in all hero-myths. Would it not be possible for the Asian Cilicians to have conflated and syncretised the Perseus cult with Mithra? Oddly, as a side note, some Greek legends apparently had it that Perseus was the eponymous ancestor of the Persians, and Medea was the ancestor of the Medes. Talk about name confusion.

Come to think of it, there's stuff in Perseus' myth that parallels Jesus. Again, not making a genetic link. I would like to know the particular "doctrines", if any, that were involved in the Perseus cult of Tarsus, also.


There is also the tendency for Classical authors to project the familiar names of their deities onto other people's gods, so you have Carthaginians sacrificing to Kronos and Egyptians worshipping Zeus, etc.

I'll have to research this more.

Roger Pearse

Do have a read of Clauss. I gather it was written for a German audience in response to some of the myths going around, and translated into English.

There is no reason not to suppose that the Cilicians might have created a cross-breed deity between Mitra and Perseus; syncretism was common in the hellenistic era. The trouble is the lack of evidence that they did, and the trail leading so prominently from Rome, almost a century later.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Dale701

I will try, Dale701

I have a book called the "An Illustrated History Of The Popes (or via: amazon.co.uk)"
Michael Walsh ISBN 0-312-40817-X, LoCCC 80-50818

On page 25 there is a picture of the pagan temple of Mithras found beneath the present church of San Clemente in Rome.
The carving on the alter (in the courtyard) shows the god Mithras slaying a bull.
The church of San Clemente is not far from the colosseum. As it stands now, it dates from the early 12th century, but in the mid 19th century it was discovered that directly beneath it lay the substantial remains of a 4th century church, and beneath that again a 1st century building.
On the other side of the alter is an imposing mansion which probably once belonged to a man named clement, possibly to Titus Flavius Clemens, the martyred consul.
Possibly the same Clement that wrote a letter of reproach from the christian church at Rome to the christian church at Corinth.

If this be true, I find it hard to believe the christians would not have destroyed the alter before building the church, unless
Mithras was not closely associated with Jesus, otherwise goodby alter.