Walrus

So if you take out the 1st century documents, it means Christianity evolved/grew even more rapidly. Three centuries from non-existent to dominant rather than four.

ApostateAbe

Walrus, welcome to the forum. As token advice for new-comers, it is best not to argue with aa5874. We typically ignore him.

Walrus

I wasn't really arguing, I was just pointing out that he bolstered your claim rather than refuted it. But thanks for the advice.

aa5874

There were probably thousands of people called christians long before the Jesus stories were written.

And based on historical sources of antiquity Jesus was irrelevant to the origin of christianity. The word "christian" is derived from the greek word for "anointing".

There were numerous versions of christians including those christians who followed the teachings of Simon Magus, the Holy one of God, since about 41-54 CE, Menander, Valentinus, Basilides, Marcus and others.

Even if there was no story about Jesus called Christ, there would have been christians.

And how long did it take Mormonism to have millions of followers?

Less than 200 years. And without the collusion of an Emperor.

It would appear that Joseph Smith, who died at around 39 years, with his followers outperformed the supposed Jesus and his disciples and he was not even worshiped as a God or was raised from the dead.

Now, what 1st century document about Jesus are you talking about that you can take out?

Unless you believe that the Bible is an historical source you wont find any extant credible historical source that can corroborate or support any supposed 1st century writing, character or event surrounding Jesus, the disciples and the Pauline writers.

Walrus

Ahhh! ApostateAbe, I now see what you mean.

aa5874

But, ApostateAbe claims he has me on ignore yet he seems to be reading my posts.

It is most laughable.

Zaphod

Could you edify me with your opinion on what in aa5874's reply leads you to believe he should be ignored?


So far, I see aa5874 correcting a rather blatant falsehood promulgated by AA about 1st century sources.

Thanks.

Walrus

ApostateAbe's point was that Christianity grew very rapidly from nothing to the dominant religion in the Roman Empire. In doing so, he cited the facts that there was nothing before the alleged time of Jesus, a few documents from the 1st century, and by the fourth century it was dominant. In trying to refute this, aa5874 disputed the existence of the 1st century works. I merely pointed out that this assertion would strengthen AA's point rather than weaken it, which led to the post you quoted.

In the post you quoted, I am responding to a post in which aa5874 ignores my point, makes the unfounded assertion that there were thousands of Christians before the alleged time of Jesus, then tries to make the discussion about which 1st century document I am talking about taking out, which is a blatant misreading of my post. Therefore, IMHO, ApostateAbe's advice to ignore aa5874 is given credence by aa5874's argumentative attempt to twist words to suit his own agenda. I hope this explanation clears it up for you.

Factinista

Thanks for the discussion everyone, very interesting.

There is still the question of the historical validity of Muhammed. Does anyone know of any good evidence if he actually existed or not?

My interest in this stuff is primarily to refute the argument: Jesus was a real historical person therefore Jesus is God.



p.s. i know this argument is a falacy but more information is always good

aa5874

Please be not mis-led by ApostateAbe. I do not make stuff up about Jesus.

The information that Jesus was the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God who walked on water, transfigured, resurrected and ascended through the clouds have been documented in the NT and Church writings.

It should be noted that the information about Homer's Achilles can be found in the writings of Homer.

Now, my position that there were probably thousands of people called christians since the time of the Emperor Claudius is SOLIDLY supported by historical sources of antiquity.

Please refer to the writings under the name Justin Martyr in "First Apology" XXVI.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...stapology.html

I do not just make wild guesses, I actually use sources of antiquity to support my position.

Now, you must admit that there were probably thousands of Christians in the days of the Emperor Claudius circa 41-54 CE and that Jesus of the NT was irrelevant to the development or origin of Christians unless you want to ignore the records of history.

By the way, in Acts it is claimed that people were first called Christians in Antioch now these Christians may have been the many followers of Menander who was in Antioch claiming he would never die before the Jesus Christ story was even written.