Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 11-15-2012, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

On the face of it that would seem correct.....

It does not consider any possibility that the original 'Pauline' writings may have been heavily tampered with and revised by the Church.

I need evidence and sources of antiquity to consider such a possibility and none has been found.

The Long gMark and gMathew have been found and are evidence that the short gMark story was manipulated.

I no longer accept speculation as evidence. My argument is NOT based on speculation but on written statements from sources of antiquity.

It is NOT possible to examine evidence that does NOT exist.

I may REVIEW my arguments when evidence from antiquity is presented.

The Pauline writings are ACTUALLY compatible with the Later Gospels.

Examine gJohn.
John 3:16 KJV

Quote:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.

Examine the Pauline writings.
Galatians 2:20 KJV

Quote:

..... I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In the short gMark, Jesus claimed that one must Follow the commandments and give to the poor to obtain Eternal life. See Mark 10

The short gMark has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Remission of Sins by Sacrifice.

The short gMark is NOT really Good News for the Jews.

The short gMark is a Fable that the Jews caused the death of the Son of their Own God and people of antiquity BELIEVED it was true and based on prophecies after the Jewish Temple fell and Jerusalem was made desolate c 70 CE.

J-D · 11-16-2012, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

On the face of it that would seem correct.....

It does not consider any possibility that the original 'Pauline' writings may have been heavily tampered with and revised by the Church.

I need evidence and sources of antiquity to consider such a possibility

How sad for you.

aa5874 · 11-16-2012, 07:45 AM

The short gMark is most fascinating.

Based on Mark 10, one needs to be an ESSENES to obtain ETERNAL life.

Based on Philo and Josephus the ESSENES followed the commandments and distrubuted their wealth among the poor.

1. Mark 10

Quote:

17 And as he went forth into the road, one ran to him, and kneeling to him asked him: Good teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

You have got to be an ESSENES in the short gMark.

2. Mark 10

Quote:

18 But Jesus said to him..........

19 Thou knowest the commandments:

Thou shalt not commit adultery,

Thou shalt not kill,

Thou shalt not steal,

Thou shalt not bear false testimony.

Thou shalt not defraud,

Honor thy father and thy mother.

20 And he said to him: Teacher, all these have I kept from my youth.

One thing is missing--You must do like the ESSENES--FEED the POOR.

3.Mark 10

Quote:

21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him: One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come follow me.

22 But becoming sad at that saying he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.

If you were NOT an ESSENES or did NOT do like the ESSENES then you will NOT obtain Eternal Life in the short gMark.

1. This is Philo on the ESSENES in Hypothetica

Quote:

And a proof of this is to be found in their life of perfect freedom; no one among them ventures at all to acquire any property whatever of his own, neither house, nor slave, nor farm, nor flocks and herds, nor any thing of any sort which can be looked upon as the fountain or provision of riches; but they bring them together into the middle as a common stock, and enjoy one common general benefit from it all.

2. This is Josephus on the ESSENES in Wars of the Jews 2.8.3

Quote:

3. These men are despisers of riches, and so very communicative as raises our admiration. Nor is there any one to be found among them who hath more than another; for it is a law among them, that those who come to them must let what they have be common to the whole order, - insomuch that among them all there is no appearance of poverty, or excess of riches, but every one's possessions are intermingled with every other's possessions

The ESSENES would have obtained Eternal Life in the short gMark.

The short gMark has NOTHING whatsoever to do about any new religion or Remission of Sins by Crucifixion.

What shall I do to obtain Eternal Llife?

Follow the commandments and sell what you have and give to the poor.

Just be an ESSENES.

The short gMark PREDATES the Entire Canonised books of the NT.

The short gMark was composed AFTER the writings of Josephus or after c 96 -100 CE.

jdboy · 11-16-2012, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The short gMark is most fascinating.

Based on Mark 10, one needs to be an ESSENES to obtain ETERNAL life.

Based on Philo and Josephus the ESSENES followed the commandments and distrubuted their wealth among the poor.

1. Mark 10

Quote:

17 And as he went forth into the road, one ran to him, and kneeling to him asked him: Good teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

You have got to be an ESSENES in the short gMark.

2. Mark 10

Quote:

18 But Jesus said to him..........

19 Thou knowest the commandments:

Thou shalt not commit adultery,

Thou shalt not kill,

Thou shalt not steal,

Thou shalt not bear false testimony.

Thou shalt not defraud,

Honor thy father and thy mother.

20 And he said to him: Teacher, all these have I kept from my youth.

One thing is missing--You must do like the ESSENES--FEED the POOR.

3.Mark 10

Quote:

21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him: One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come follow me.

22 But becoming sad at that saying he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.

If you were NOT an ESSENES or did NOT do like the ESSENES then you will NOT obtain Eternal Life in the short gMark.

1. This is Philo on the ESSENES in Hypothetica

Quote:

And a proof of this is to be found in their life of perfect freedom; no one among them ventures at all to acquire any property whatever of his own, neither house, nor slave, nor farm, nor flocks and herds, nor any thing of any sort which can be looked upon as the fountain or provision of riches; but they bring them together into the middle as a common stock, and enjoy one common general benefit from it all.

2. This is Josephus on the ESSENES in Wars of the Jews 2.8.3

Quote:

3. These men are despisers of riches, and so very communicative as raises our admiration. Nor is there any one to be found among them who hath more than another; for it is a law among them, that those who come to them must let what they have be common to the whole order, - insomuch that among them all there is no appearance of poverty, or excess of riches, but every one's possessions are intermingled with every other's possessions

The ESSENES would have obtained Eternal Life in the short gMark.

The short gMark has NOTHING whatsoever to do about any new religion or Remission of Sins by Crucifixion.

What shall I do to obtain Eternal Llife?

Follow the commandments and sell what you have and give to the poor.

Just be an ESSENES.

The short gMark PREDATES the Entire Canonised books of the NT.

The short gMark was composed AFTER the writings of Josephus or after c 96 -100 CE.

No, you had to give everything To The Essenes not to the poor.

What does Josephus tell us about the rich trying to leave Jerusalem?

aa5874 · 11-16-2012, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The short gMark has NOTHING whatsoever to do about any new religion or Remission of Sins by Crucifixion.

What shall I do to obtain Eternal Llife?

Follow the commandments and sell what you have and give to the poor.

Just be an ESSENES.

The short gMark PREDATES the Entire Canonised books of the NT.

The short gMark was composed AFTER the writings of Josephus or after c 96 -100 CE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

No, you had to give everything To The Essenes not to the poor.

Mark 10

Quote:

21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him: One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come follow me.

22 But becoming sad at that saying he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.

Based on the short gMark 10, one would obtain Eternal Life if he was an ESSENES.

The Essenes obeyed the commandments and despised riches. The Essenes was NOT a cult of Rich people.

In gMark, Jesus did NOT die in order for people to obtain Eternal Life or Remission of Sins.

The claim that Jesus died for Remission of Sins is a LATE invention found in the Later Gospels and Pauline writings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

What does Josephus tell us about the rich trying to leave Jerusalem?

What did Josephus tell us about the Essenes??

1 Josephus on the ESSENES in Wars of the Jews 2.8.3

Quote:

3. These men are despisers of riches...

2.Antiquities of the Jews 18

Quote:

This is demonstrated by that institution of theirs, which will not suffer any thing to hinder them from having all things in common; so that a rich man enjoys no more of his own wealth than he who hath nothing at all.

It is clear that Essenes would have obtained Salvation--Eternal Life--based on gMark.

Essenes gave to those who had NOTHING at all and obeyed the commandments.

jdboy · 11-16-2012, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The short gMark has NOTHING whatsoever to do about any new religion or Remission of Sins by Crucifixion.

What shall I do to obtain Eternal Llife?

Follow the commandments and sell what you have and give to the poor.

Just be an ESSENES.

The short gMark PREDATES the Entire Canonised books of the NT.

The short gMark was composed AFTER the writings of Josephus or after c 96 -100 CE.

Mark 10

Based on the short gMark 10, one would obtain Eternal Life if he was an ESSENES.

The Essenes obeyed the commandments and despised riches. The Essenes was NOT a cult of Rich people.

In gMark, Jesus did NOT die in order for people to obtain Eternal Life or Remission of Sins.

The claim that Jesus died for Remission of Sins is a LATE invention found in the Later Gospels and Pauline writings.

What did Josephus tell us about the Essenes??

1 Josephus on the ESSENES in Wars of the Jews 2.8.3

2.Antiquities of the Jews 18

Quote:

This is demonstrated by that institution of theirs, which will not suffer any thing to hinder them from having all things in common; so that a rich man enjoys no more of his own wealth than he who hath nothing at all.

It is clear that Essenes would have obtained Salvation--Eternal Life--based on gMark.

Essenes gave to those who had NOTHING at all and obeyed the commandments.

Essenes gave to other essenes. You had to join the essenes before you could share in the community. There was a waiting period of a year before you were considered eligible.
Essenes Did Not sell everything and give to the poor. Essenes gave everything to the Essene community.

aa5874 · 11-16-2012, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Based on the short gMark 10, one would obtain Eternal Life if he was an ESSENES.

The Essenes obeyed the commandments and despised riches. The Essenes was NOT a cult of Rich people.

In gMark, Jesus did NOT die in order for people to obtain Eternal Life or Remission of Sins.

The claim that Jesus died for Remission of Sins is a LATE invention found in the Later Gospels and Pauline writings.

What did Josephus tell us about the Essenes??

1 Josephus on the ESSENES in Wars of the Jews 2.8.3

2.Antiquities of the Jews 18

Quote:

This is demonstrated by that institution of theirs, which will not suffer any thing to hinder them from having all things in common; so that a rich man enjoys no more of his own wealth than he who hath nothing at all.

It is clear that Essenes would have obtained Salvation--Eternal Life--based on gMark.

Essenes gave to those who had NOTHING at all and obeyed the commandments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Essenes gave to other essenes. You had to join the essenes before you could share in the community. There was a waiting period of a year before you were considered eligible.
Essenes Did Not sell everything and give to the poor. Essenes gave everything to the Essene community.

Are you implying that a supposed rich Believer does not give to the poor if he distributes his wealth among those Believers who have nothing??

If Jesus did exist and there was a Jesus cult would you not expect those of the cult who sold their property would have given to the POOR of cult??

Again, please read Philo's Hypothetica. The Essenes who owned property must have sold them and given to the poor.

1. This is Philo on the ESSENES in Hypothetica

Quote:

And a proof of this is to be found in their life of perfect freedom; no one among them ventures at all to acquire any property whatever of his own, neither house, nor slave, nor farm, nor flocks and herds, nor any thing of any sort which can be looked upon as the fountain or provision of riches; but they bring them together into the middle as a common stock, and enjoy one common general benefit from it all.

jdboy · 11-16-2012, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Based on the short gMark 10, one would obtain Eternal Life if he was an ESSENES.

The Essenes obeyed the commandments and despised riches. The Essenes was NOT a cult of Rich people.

In gMark, Jesus did NOT die in order for people to obtain Eternal Life or Remission of Sins.

The claim that Jesus died for Remission of Sins is a LATE invention found in the Later Gospels and Pauline writings.

What did Josephus tell us about the Essenes??

1 Josephus on the ESSENES in Wars of the Jews 2.8.3

2.Antiquities of the Jews 18

It is clear that Essenes would have obtained Salvation--Eternal Life--based on gMark.

Essenes gave to those who had NOTHING at all and obeyed the commandments.

Are you implying that a supposed rich Believer does not give to the poor if he distributes his wealth among those Believers who have nothing??

If Jesus did exist and there was a Jesus cult would you not expect those of the cult who sold their property would have given to the POOR of cult??

Again, please read Philo's Hypothetica. The Essenes who owned property must have sold them and given to the poor.

1. This is Philo on the ESSENES in Hypothetica

Quote:

And a proof of this is to be found in their life of perfect freedom; no one among them ventures at all to acquire any property whatever of his own, neither house, nor slave, nor farm, nor flocks and herds, nor any thing of any sort which can be looked upon as the fountain or provision of riches; but they bring them together into the middle as a common stock, and enjoy one common general benefit from it all.

Please, to be an Essene you had to give everything to the community. There were no rich or poor Essenes. They shared equally whatever the Community had.

aa5874 · 11-16-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Please, to be an Essene you had to give everything to the community. There were no rich or poor Essenes. They shared equally whatever the Community had.

Again, persons who became Essenes were NOT all rich people there were those who had nothing at all.

1.Antiquities of the Jews 18

Quote:

This is demonstrated by that institution of theirs, which will not suffer any thing to hinder them from having all things in common; so that a rich man enjoys no more of his own wealth than he who hath nothing at all.

jdboy · 11-16-2012, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Please, to be an Essene you had to give everything to the community. There were no rich or poor Essenes. They shared equally whatever the Community had.

Again, persons who became Essenes were NOT all rich people there were those who had nothing at all.

1.Antiquities of the Jews 18

Quote:

This is demonstrated by that institution of theirs, which will not suffer any thing to hinder them from having all things in common; so that a rich man enjoys no more of his own wealth than he who hath nothing at all.

Your quote is an analogy of what it would be like for a rich man to be an Essene. In other words it would be as if you had nothing at all. This has nothing to do with Essenes giving to the poor.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.