goldenroad

Let me ask you a question; Have you actually studied the prophecies any? Have you studied their context? Before saying they are "cherry-picked" read some. As for the gospels being written by people who never new Jesus that is false. Luke is thought to have been Peter's "sidekick", Matthew and John were two of Jesus's twelve. John refers to himself in his gospel as "the belove disciple". There is speculation about Mark but if it is true that the other gospels were written after Mark then its safe to say that Mark probably was an eyewitness. As for the date of Mark, don't have time to go back and review the facts (i'll try to come back tomorrow night with an argument) but 20 years is hardly relevant. Supposedly it takes more than 2 generations for a document to be subject to legendary and speculative decay and all the gospels are within 1 generation.

rlogan

Yeah. Get back to us on that, would you please? The stuff about coming back from the dead for example - we want to make sure that was three days and not actually more like two and a half. Want to make sure it's reliable.

Oh no, you can do much better than that. Why not say they had stenographers right there?


I think Stanford calibrates speculative decay at two parts per megacycle.


Now apart from this you know of course that the golden plates of Joseph Smith are better attested to than anything from the Bible. We have sworn contemporary statements from people that we can actually dig up from their graves should there be any doubt as to their existance.

So what do you say champ, shall we go with Mormonsim? Indians = Israelis?

Sven

OK, I withdraw my comment. Sorry.

Using loose interpretations like this, you could prove that each and every astrologist of your local tabloid is a genius prophet.

Hint: For a visit to your local library, you don't need connection to the Internet.

Another hint: That's why historians don't gullibly swallow each and every historical document, but carefully check and counter-check it against everything else we know. Unfortunately for Christians, the gospels spectactularly fail in this procedure.

Please provide any shred of evidence that they were eyewitnesses. This is actually a very late tradition.

"Could be argued", yeah. It also "could be argued" that the moon is made out of green chesse.

Why bother us with this about 1000 times refuted drivel for th 1001st time?

The Evil One

Goldenroad, why not start with ONE prophecy that you think is very clearly fulfilled by Jesus.

Then:

1) Explain why that prophecy must refer to Jesus and not to anything else.
2) Explain how Jesus' actions as described in the NT fulfil that prophecy.
3) Demonstrate that this particular event in the Jesus narrative really happened.

you will find this much, much more difficult than you imagine. This is why I suggest you pick just ONE prophecy and take it one step at a time.

Coleslaw

These are the prophecies the Messiah needs to fulfill:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web//f...-criteria.html

As for "some would apply to Jesus's next coming", that's a sneaky way of saying he didn't fulfill them. If he hasn't fulfilled these criteria, he hasn't fulfilled any Jewish (as per your header) prophecies of the Messiah. And if he hasn't done that, then there is no reason to believe he is the Messiah and hence no reason to believe he is going to come back and do all this in the future.

ughaibu

'Jesus is god, god is omniscient, Jesus is blind to the doom that awaits him', looks like this thread's going to be replete with convincing interpretations.

James Brown

Love this link, thank you for that. I've long argued that it was Christians who made every squint-your-eyes-yeah-that-could-be-referring-to-Jesus "prophecy" in the Old Testament. Only Christians say that Jesus fulfilled 300-odd OT messianic prophecies, because no Jew has ever come up with that high a number.

I notice some particular prophecies missing from that list, such as:
* Born of a virgin
* Born in Bethlehem
* "Called" out of Egypt
* Called a Nazarene
* Entering Jerusalem on a donkey
* Hit and spat upon

And on and on.

I've found it curious to think what Jews have gone through regarding their Messiah. They come up with this hero that will restore them to a glory they feel they deserve, and then this cult of Christians co-opt their history and traditions, declare this mensch to be the Messiah despite what anyone else might think, then build it up to this worldwide religion that far surpasses the glory and power that the Jews have ever had. It would be comical if not for so many Jews being persecuted and killed by their religious offspring.

Coleslaw

A discussion of just how that high number came about can be found here:
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Ta...edis49is61.htm

(You have to click on the link for Isaiah 52:13-53:12 to come to this paragraph and the verses to which it refers-15 verses are split up into 43 prophecies.)

That link is part of a series of refutations of the 300 some odd supposed messianic prophecies:

http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Ta...utedgendeu.htm
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Ta...utedjudjob.htm
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Ta...tedps2ps45.htm
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Ta...tedp55song.htm
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Ta...tedis6is48.htm
http://uk.geocities.com/hesedyahu/Ta...utedjermal.htm

Interesting point. If you haven't already read it, you might enjoy David Kilnghoffer's book, Why the Jews Rejected Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk).

EarlOfLade

I can see that you have never been present during slaughter of animals, have you?

I have and I have seen how animals seems to know what is going to happen. Go to your local slaughter house or ask any animal farmer.

Mythra

goldenroad: What you don't realize is that your premise (fulfilled prophecies) follows this pattern:

1. The gospels are factual chronicles of events which actually occurred.

2. Here are the prophecies from the Old Testament which were fulfilled.

If you're going to convince anyone, before you get to #2 you have to give reasonable, persuasive evidence for #1.

If the gospels are allegorical narratives that are loosely based on a historical individual or entirely fictional, coming up with a "fulfilled prophecy" is nonsensical. Since the gospel writers had the OT at their disposal and could insert any "facts" they wished at the time of writing.