Johnny Skeptic

Message to rhutchin: If you wish, I might be able to find some well-educated Arminians (hopefully who have Ph.D.'s or Th.D.'s) who are willing to come to the IIDB to debate you about 2 Peter 3:9, and Calvinism. How about it?

Sauron

Confused? No. You just don't like the fact that there is no universally accepted definition of "christian" - which is why there are so many denominational wars over what it takes to be a christian.

Generally speaking,
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/christian

Sauron

1. However, the numbers problems are usually listed as being the more minor discrepancies - 4,000 chariots vs 40,000 chariots. When I consider contradictions in the bible, I don't even list number problems unless they're wide discrepancies (75 men vs 4 men).

2. And Till's list is far more than just a collection of contradictory numbers, and you know it. Why are you evading responding to his list?

1. But given that you don't know the languages in question, how is it that you summarily have decided that no linguistic knowledge is needed? Your position amounts to "I don't know anything about medicine; so it's likely that no medical knowledge is needed."

2. The errors in Till's list are more than just grammatical errors anyhow. You aren't going to wave your hands and make them all go away by claiming grammar is the problem.

Huh? Why in the world would you do that?

Since we've been discussing Till all along, why did you decide to leave that discussion and talk in generalities?

Address Till's list, if you please - which ones do you think are "merely numbers", which ones do you think are "grammar", and which ones don't fit either category?

Sauron

Then you need to show why your denominational version of those assumptions or beliefs is somehow superior than the other 11 people that you ask. If you can't do that, then why should anyone accept your denominational version?

Wrong. The issue is

(1) first identify a set of assumptions that everyone agrees upon are being used here;
(2) test that set of assumptions to see if they are true or not;

If (1) and (2) are satisfied, then -- and only then -- can you:
(3) incorporate these assumptions into an understanding of what the bible says.

You're attempting to cheat here; you want to skip (1) and (2) and go directly to (3).

I wouldn't accept any counter-factual or counter-intuitive assumptions, regardless of the source.

No, it's *your* underlying assumption - the one you must prove. Other people professing to be christians -- and jews, for that matter -- would say that large chunks of the OT and NT were not meant to be taken as divinely inspired, or written by God.

You are assuming:

(1) that God is the source of the information, when that hasn't been proven;
(2) no contradictions exist in the text; and
(3) there is a quality or attribute of God that would prevent contradictions from being present in the text

Am I incorrect in any of this? I know you'd like to say that these are merely the underlying assumptions of the text - but as I pointed out, that is your denominmational opinion of what the underlying assumptions are. Other christian groups or denominations will say that the set of underlying assumptions is different from what you think.

Why do we need one at all?

You haven't given us a reason why we need to start with ANY underlying assumption. Why not start from the position of NO underlying assumption, sit back, and let's just see where the evidence leads us?

You act as if applying an underlying assumption is a requirement, before studying the text can proceed. It isn't, you know.

aa5874

The first question is who or what is a Christ?

Johnny Skeptic

http://www.geocities.com/atheistdivi...s/genesis.html

Biblical Errors in Genesis

Genesis, the first book of the Bible, supposedly written by Moses, who had direct communication with God. Makes sense, because some of the events in there are supposed to have happened when only God was around, so we might expect this book to be correct. NOPE!

Genesis 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
Genesis 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

Genesis 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
Genesis 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

Genesis 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
Genesis 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

Genesis 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
Genesis 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

Genesis 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
Genesis 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

Genesis 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
Leviticus 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)

Genesis 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
Genesis 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)

Genesis 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as "the Lord" (Yahweh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses.
Exodus 6:2-3 God was first known as "the Lord" (Yahweh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses.

Genesis 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

Genesis 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.
Hebrews 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.

Genesis 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's.
2 Chronicles 19:7, Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.

Genesis 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Abel is.
Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, 23:24-25, Hebrews 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

Genesis 4:15, Deuteronomy 32:4, Isaiah 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
Exodus 15:3, Isaiah 42:13, Hebrews 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.
Exodus 20:5, 34:14, Deuteronomy 4:24, Exodus 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.
Leviticus 26:7-8, Numbers 31:17-18, Deuteronomy 20:16-17, Joshua 10:40, Judges 14:19, Ezekiel 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.
Numbers 25:3-4, Deuteronomy 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, Psalms 7:11, 78:49, Jeremiah 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, Zephaniah 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.
2 Samuel 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."
Ezekiel 6:12, Nahum 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "...who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him."
2 Corinthians 13:11, 14, 1 John 4:8, 16 God is love.
Galatians 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Genesis 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord.
Jeremiah 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth.

Genesis 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.
Genesis 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.
Numbers 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.

Genesis 6:6, Exodus 32:14, Numbers 14:20, 1 Samuel 15:35, 2 Samuel 24:16 God does change his mind.
Numbers 23:19-20, Isaiah 15:29, James 1:17 God does not change his mind.

Genesis 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
Genesis 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.

Genesis 7:1 Noah was righteous.
Job 1:1,8, 2:3 Job was righteous.
Luke 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.
James 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).
1 John 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).
Romans 3:10, 3:23, 1 John 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.

Genesis 7:7 Noah and his clan enter the Ark.
Genesis 7:13 They enter the Ark (again?).

Genesis 11:7-9 God sows discord.
Proverbs 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord.

Genesis 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world.
1 Corinthians 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion.

Genesis 11:12 Arpachshad [Arphaxad] was the father of Shelah.
Luke 3:35-36 Cainan was the father of Shelah. Arpachshad was the grandfather of Shelah.

GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born.
Genesis 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time).
Genesis 12:4, Acts 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years.

Genesis 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, Exodus 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, Numbers 12:7-8, 14:14, Job 42:5, Amos 7:7-8, 9:1 God is seen.
EX 33:20, John 1:18, 1 John 4:12 God is not seen. No one can see God's face and live. No one has ever seen him.

Genesis 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the Tower of Babel.
Genesis 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower of Babel.

Genesis 15:9, Exodus 20:24, 29:10-42, Leviticus 1:1-7, 38, Numbers 28:1-29, 40 God details sacrificial offerings.
Jeremiah 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing.

Genesis 16:15, 21:1-3, Galatians 4:22 Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.
Hebrews 11:17 Abraham had only one son.

Genesis 17:1, 35:11, 1 Chronicles 29:11-12, Luke 1:37 God is omnipotent. Nothing is impossible with (or for) God.
Judges 1:19 Although God was with Judah, together they could not defeat the plainsmen because the latter had iron chariots.

Genesis 17:7, 10-11 The covenant of circumcision is to be everlasting.
Galatians 6:15 It is of no consequence.

Genesis 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession."
Genesis 25:8, Acts 7:2-5, Hebrews 11:13 Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled.

Genesis 17:15-16, 20:11-12, 22:17 Abraham and his half sister, Sarai, are married and receive God's blessings.
Leviticus 20:17, Deuteronomy 27:20-23 Incest is wrong.

Genesis 18:20-21 God decides to "go down" to see what is going on.
Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, 23:24-25, Hebrews 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

Genesis 19:30-38 While he is drunk, Lot's two daughters "lie with him," become pregnant, and give birth to his offspring.
2 Peter 2:7 Lot was "just" and "righteous."

Genesis 22:1-12, Deuteronomy 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses.
Judges 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt).
1 Corinthians 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations.
James 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one.

Genesis 27:28 "May God give you ... an abundance of grain and new wine."
Deuteronomy 7:13 If they follow his commandments, God will bless the fruit of their wine.
Psalms 104:5 God gives us wine to gladden the heart.
Jeremiah 13:12 "... every bottle shall be filled with wine."
John 2:1-11 According to the author of John, Jesus' first miracle was turning water to wine.
Romans 14:21 It is good to refrain from drinking wine.

Genesis 35:10 God says Jacob is to be called Jacob no longer; henceforth his name is Israel.
Genesis 46:2 At a later time, God himself uses the name Jacob.

Genesis 36:11 The sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz.
Genesis 36:15-16 Teman, Omar, Zepho, Kenaz.
1 Chronicles 1:35-36 Teman, Omar, Zephi, Gatam, Kenaz, Timna, and Amalek.

Genesis 49:2-28 The fathers of the twelve tribes of Israel are: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, and Benjamin.
Revelation 7:4-8 (Leaves out the tribe of Dan, but adds Manasseh.)

Genesis 50:13 Jacob was buried in a cave at Machpelah bought from Ephron the Hittite.
Acts 7:15-16 He was buried in the sepulchre at Shechem, bought from the sons of Hamor.

Johnny: The web site also says the following:

Numbers 33:38 Aaron died on Mt. Hor.
Deuteronomy 10:6 Aaron died in Mosera.

Johnny: Rhutchin will of course claim that all of the preceding evidence is just insignificant details, but no rational person will pay any attention to him.

Gamera

What do the factual errors in a text have to do with its meaning?

Shakespeare's Richard III is filled with historical "errors." So what? You read it for its meaning not for its geopolitics.

You seem to be attacking a straw man.

Gamera

Well this is a nonsequitur from a distracted mind if there ever was one.

How is that the point? Christians believe we have accepted God's love and become new creations capable of being loving people, and expressing that love. We may be wrong, but that's the concept, not the wierd rendition of Christianity you keep flogging.

Gamera

Hence my reference to the NT. The OT is filled with promises of material gain.

Context, context, context. Jesus isn't talking to all Christians. He's talking to particular group, the Apostles, who says will have God's support in their initial evangelizing.

That's not a promise to Christians in general.

Gamera

It's not useless. It's simply not subject to imperical verification, like a lot of things. You can't prove somebody loves you or that mountains are beautiful, but the claim is meaningful.

And how do you know it's self deception unless you assume your conclusion?

This is all in response to Skeptics odd standards he's applied to Christianity and the Christian texts. He claimed Christianity is about "getting to heaven" and my post rebuts this uninformed claim. Your argument is at a different level. You aren't rebutting my claim that Christianity is not about getting to heaven, you're simply disagreeing with me about the validity of Christianity. Fine. I've made my point