GaryP

Thanks for the thoughts and info. I asked him for his source and he gave me these;


The Bible and Archaeology, Sir Frederic Kenyon

The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?, F.F. Bruce

From the Stone Age to Christianity, William F. Albright (also: Recent Discoveries in Bible Lands; Christianity Today, Vol. 7, p.3)

Relating the New Testament, John A.T. Robinson

The Bearing of Recent Discovery on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament, Sir William Ramsay

Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism, J. Harold Greenlee

Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament, A.N. Sherwin-White

Set Forth Your Case, Clark Pinnock

Minimalist

According to whom? His press agent?

spin

No, he's giving clueless hackwork. He acts as if non-christian material at Oxyrhynchus and Tebtunis (both in Egypt) had not been discovered. From Oxyrhynchus there are for example numerous fragments of Thucydides from the 1st c. Aristotle doesn't seem to have been popular as there are only a few fragments from the 2nd c. You'll find Herodotus, Demosthenes, Aeschines, Dinarchus, Strabo, Plato, and various poets and playwrights, though the texts are all from the period of literary life of the city from the 1st c. to 5th c.


spin

Doug Shaver

I have read a gawdawful lot of apologist bunk in my time, but I have never seen that claim made before now.

A few weeks ago, I did read something by a respectable conservative scholar (I don't remember which one -- possibly Metzger) who noted that it is just barely possible that P52 is a piece of the original document. He made it perfectly clear, though, that he didn't believe it actually was, and that even if it was, there was no way it could be proven so.

Chris Weimer

This is what HeretiKc has from me now. It apparently vindicates Acts.

Toto

Conservative Christian apologists like to quote Sherwin-White's conclusion on Acts.

wikipedia on Sherwin-White I would like to see the detailed reasoning behind this conclusion, however. He might claim that Roman historians (from a Christian culture) have long taken it for granted, but few New Testament scholars appear to agree. I will have to find a copy of this book.

Sherwin-White is also cited for the idea that there was not enough time for legendary development between the death of Jesus and the writing of the first gospel. This idea has been generally debunked.

Boro Nut

Fragments of biblical manuscripts are far too precious to become parts of bibles. We have whole rain forests for that. The precious fragments are sealed in inert atmospheres in total darkness to preserve them because god never bothered to.

Unless it's some sciency mumbo jumbo like the lost works of Archimedes or something. Just scratch it all off the vellum and start a bible I say. Oh you already did? Nice one Your Emminence.

Boro Nut

Chris Weimer

Yes, well aware, which is one of the reasons I bought the book. As I said that HeretiKc has it now, as soon as it's back in my possession, I plan on reading and reviewing it to see his method and logic. He's a solid Classicist, which doesn't make him a lightweight.

PhilosopherJay

Hi Gary P.

Ramsay was born in 1851.

(Sir William Mitchell Ramsay. St. Paul the Traveler and the Roman Citizen. London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1881.[sic] Chapter 1: THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES: TRUSTWORTHINESS.from http://www.tektonics.org/testimony/archmony.htm)

I may fairly claim to have entered on this investigation without any prejudice in favour of the conclusion which I shall now attempt to justify to the reader. On the contrary, I began with a mind unfavourable to it, for the ingenuity and apparent completeness of the Tubingen theory had at one time quite convinced me. It did not lie then in my line of life to investigate the subject minutely; but more recently I found myself often brought in contact with the book of Acts as an authority for the topography, antiquities, and society of Asia Minor. It was gradually borne in upon me that in various details the narrative showed marvellous truth. In fact, beginning with the fixed idea that the work was essentially a second-century composition, and never relying on its evidence as trustworthy for first-century conditions. I gradually came to find it a useful ally in some obscure and difficult investigations.

Like his hero Paul, Ramsay claims to have been undergone a miraculous convertion. He went from being an enemy of the historical accuracy of Acts to its defender. He offers no evidence or proof that he ever wrote anything or said anything to anyone about Acts not being historically accurate. He says merely that before he investigated the subject "minutely," he had been convinced of the Tubingen theory. He does not say how old he was or how long he held the view. Since he gives no facts in the case, we may take his conversion as merely a rhetorical device being used to establish his objectivity and to attack the Tubingen Theory and not as an important fact that requires substantiation and proof.


He published The Church in the Roman Empire in 1893. It was his second book. He argues in it (pages 37-40) that Iconium was a city in Phrygia not Lycaonia as supposed by all major non-Christian writers of the time period. He thus vindicates the historical accuracy of Acts on this question. His proof is not based on archaeology, but primarily on an epistle by a Third century Bishop named Firmillian who mentions this fact in a letter:

All which we some time back confirmed in Iconium, which is a place in Phrygia, when we were assembled together with those who had gathered from Galatia and Cilicia, and other neighbouring countries, as to be held and firmly vindicated against heretics, when there was some doubt in certain minds concerning that matter.

Ramsay assumes that Firmillian is talking about a conference that he himself attended in Iconium. However, it is just as likely that the "we" simply refers to leaders of his Church, and that he has gotten the idea that Iconium is in Phrygia from reading Acts. The later hypothesis is made extremely likely as he happens to cite Acts in the very next paragraph of his letter.

It seems that Ramsay dismisses the testimony of Cicero, Strabo, Pliny and other non-Christians that Iconium was a Lycaonian city. He support the idea that it was a Phrygian city (as mis/stated in Acts) based on the testimony of other Christians that it is Phrygian without considering that these other Christians are likely to have gotten their mis/information regarding Iconium from Acts.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

andrewcriddle

Sherwin-White presents a strong case IMO that the author of Acts is thoroughly familiar with the 1st century state of affairs in the Roman Empire, rather than with the very different situation from the time of Hadrian on.

Although I find his case reasonably convincing, it would be compatible IMO with a date for Acts within the very early 2nd century CE. (IE the case is IMO for a date before the time of Hadrian rather than a date before the time of Trajan.)

Andrew Criddle