Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Huon · 01-30-2008, 10:18 AM

spin :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oaths_of_Strasbourg

In 842 CE, the grand-sons of Charlemagne, Louis the Pious, the ruler of the eastern Frankish kingdom, and his half-brother Charles the Bald, ruler of the western Frankish kingdom took an oath of mutual assistance, against their elder brother, the emperor Lothair.

Charles spoke in old french :
“Pro Deo amur et pro Christian poblo et nostro commun salvament, …
“For the love of God and for Christendom and our common salvation, …

spin · 01-30-2008, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

In 842 CE, the grand-sons of Charlemagne Louis the Pious, the ruler of the eastern Frankish kingdom, and his half-brother Charles the Bald, ruler of the western Frankish kingdom took an oath of mutual assistance, against their elder brother, the emperor Lothair.

Charles spoke in old french :
“Pro Deo amur et pro Christian poblo et nostro commun salvament, …
“For the love of God and for Christendom and our common salvation, …

Great. Thanks. Love it. Rough hypothesis:

christian -> (/st/ > /et/) chri[e]ti[e]n -> (/ie/ > /é/) chrétien

But "chrestian" makes a nicer source.

spin

aa5874 · 01-30-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

.....Now many christians have jumped on the band-waggon
of finding 1st and 2nd century CE references to "CHRESTOS"
and labelling them as "Christian!!!!!!!!".........

Tertullian in Apology did mention some confusion between the words "ChrIstian" and "ChrEstian"

Apology 3.5

Quote:

...But Christian, so far as the meaning of the word is concerned, is derived from anointing.Yes and even when it is wrongly pronounced by "ChrEstianus", (for you do not even know accurately the name you hate).....

But, regardless of the confusion, Theophilus of Antioch in "Theophilus to Autolycus" writing late 2nd century, wrote he was a "Christian, yet he appeared to have no knowledge at all of Jesus Christ, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ or the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Theophilus wrote three books "to Autolycus", yet nothing in them are about Jesus the Saviour or Jesus the son of God of Moses, it does not appear that Theophilus knew or believed that the God of Moses had a son named Jesus Christ.

Theophilus claimed that they were Christians because they were anointed with the oil of God. Not because of the blood of Jesus, the crucifiction or the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

"Theophilus to Autolycus" 1.12 titled "Meaning of the name Christian"

Quote:

And about your laughing at me and calling me "Christian," you know not what you are saying. First, because that which is anointed is sweet and serviceable, and far from contemptible........Wherefore we are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God.

So, whether there was confusion between ChrIstian and ChrEstian, it appears there were persons called Christians that had nothing all to do with Jesus Christ, the son of the God of Moses, the Saviour crucified and resurrected.

And, further based on the admission by Theophilus, a Christian, one who is anointed by the oil of God, may have have predated the Jesus of the NT.

mountainman · 01-31-2008, 10:22 PM

Thanks for the inclusions to date on "chrestus".
I'd like to know which Caesar the inscribed "Chrestus"
worked for, but how is an undated stone dated?
This is a problem.

The following is an index of all references that
I have located to-date in the period before the
"ecclesiastical commentators" commenced to
write in the second century. I will gather up
references from the "ecclesiastical commentators"
in a second list later ... Where the date is XXX
I dont know it.

XXX BCE Homer's use of "chriso"
Christian theology has chosen and decreed that the name Christos
should be taken as derived from [chrio, chriso], "anointed with
scented unguents or oil." But this word has several significances.
It is used by Homer as applied to the rubbing with oil of the body
after bathing (Il. 23, 186; also in Od., 4, 252). Yet the word
Christes means rather a white-washer, while the word Chrestes
means priest and prophet, a term which on the surface may appear
to be far more applicable to Jesus, than that of the "Anointed,"
since, he never was anointed, either as king or priest.

XXX BCE
Erythrean Sybil. [IESOUS CHREISTOS THEOU HUIOS SOTER STAUROS].
The prophecy relates to the coming down upon the Earth of the Spirit
of Truth (Christos), after which advent will begin the Golden Age;
the verse refers to the necessity before reaching that blessed condition
of inner (or subjective) theophany and theopneusty, to pass through the
crucifixion of flesh or matter. (NB: This IMO refers to ASCETICISM)
The words meaning literally "Iesus, Christos, God, Son, Savior, Cross,"
are most excellent handles to hang a Christian prophecy on, but they
are pagan, not Christian.

470 BCE
Aeschylus (Cho. 901) we read of pythochresta
the "oracles delivered by a Pythian God"

460 BCE
Pindar (pp. 4-10) The words [chresen oikistera]
mean "the oracle proclaimed him the colonizer."
In this case the genius of the Greek language permits
that the man so proclaimed should be called Chrestos.
Hence this term was applied to every Disciple recognized by a Master,
as also to every good man.

420 BCE
Euripides (Ion. 1320) (Eurip. Ion, 1218)
Pythochrestos is the nominative singular
of an adjective derived from chrao .

420 BCE
Herodotus - The word [chreon] is explained by Herodotus (7,11,7,) as that which an oracle declares, and See also Vide Herodotus, 7, 215; 5, 108;

420 BCE
Sophocles, Phil. 437.

350 BCE
Plato (in Phaed. 264 B) has [chrestos ei hoti hegei] --
"you are an excellent fellow to think . . ."

333 BCE
Demosthenes saying [o Chreste] (330, 27), means by it simply "you nice fellow"; Demosthenes, De Corona, 313, declares that the candidates for initiation into the Greek mysteries were anointed with oil. So they are now in India, even in the initiation the Yogi mysteries, various ointments or unguents being used.

XXX BCE
Pagan classics expressed more than one idea
by the verb [chraomai] "consulting an oracle";
for it also means "fated," doomed by an oracle,
in the sense of a sacrificial victim to its decree, or --
"to the WORD"; as chresterion is not only "the seat of an oracle"
but also "an offering to, or for, the oracle.'' (18)
Chrestes is one who expounds or explains oracles,
"a prophet, a soothsayer;" (19) and
chresterios is one who belongs to, or is in the service of,
an oracle, a god, or a "Master" (20);

010 CE
Philo Judaeus speaks of theochrestos "God-declared,"
or one who is declared by god, and of
logia theochresta "sayings delivered by God" --
which proves that he wrote at a time
when neither Christians nor Chrestians were yet known
under these names, but still called themselves the Nazarenes.

090 CE
[to chreon] is given by Plutarch (Nich. 14.) as "fate," "necessity." Plutarch (V. Phocion), wonders how such a rough and dull fellow as Phocion could be surnamed Chrestos.

XXX BCE/CE?
In the Travels of Dr. Clarke, inscription
[CHRESTOS PROTOS THESSALOS LARISSAIOS PELASGIOTES ETON IH]; or, "Chrestos, the first, a Thessalonian from Larissa, Pelasgiot 18 years old Hero." Dr. Clarke shows, the word Chrestos is found on the epitaphs of almost all the ancient Larissians; but it is preceded always by a proper name.

JayW · 02-01-2008, 04:49 PM

If the title Chrestes was in use prior to Jesus,it isn't surprising it was still in use at the time of his birth. The name Jesus is Greek version of Jessie,or Joshua,and spelled in Hebrew,Yeshua or Yeshu. The Apostle Paul called Him Jesus the Christ,or Christ Jesus, apparantly using Chtrist as a title and not a name. Other places in the Bible refer to Him as Christ Jesus,or more correctly Priest Jesus,or Jesus the priest. There's nothing much to justify in the earlier use off the title Chrestes. Yeshua was a common name in Isreal. Using the title Cristos or Christ singled Him out from all the many other Jesus in Isreal.

mountainman · 02-01-2008, 08:36 PM

I have yet to gather up now the citations in the epoch CE,
including the following:

P.Oxy 3035 Order to arrest ["chrestian"]
[JBL] an order from February 256 to arrest a certain “Petosorapis, son of Horus, Christian” (P.Oxy. 3035).

This citation has in the past been used by many authors
in discussion of "Early Christian Origins" whereas, as
this thread demonstrates, it has nothing to do at all
with "christianity".

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

02-01-2008, 08:36 PM	#16
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	P.Oxy 3035 Order to arrest ["chrestian"] I have yet to gather up now the citations in the epoch CE, including the following: P.Oxy 3035 Order to arrest ["chrestian"] [JBL] an order from February 256 to arrest a certain “Petosorapis, son of Horus, Christian” (P.Oxy. 3035). This citation has in the past been used by many authors in discussion of "Early Christian Origins" whereas, as this thread demonstrates, it has nothing to do at all with "christianity". Best wishes, Pete Brown

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01-30-2008, 10:18 AM	#11
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	spin : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oaths_of_Strasbourg In 842 CE, the grand-sons of Charlemagne, Louis the Pious, the ruler of the eastern Frankish kingdom, and his half-brother Charles the Bald, ruler of the western Frankish kingdom took an oath of mutual assistance, against their elder brother, the emperor Lothair. Charles spoke in old french : “Pro Deo amur et pro *Christian* poblo et nostro commun salvament, … “For the love of God and for Christendom and our common salvation, …

01-31-2008, 10:22 PM	#14
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Thanks for the inclusions to date on "chrestus". I'd like to know which Caesar the inscribed "Chrestus" worked for, but how is an undated stone dated? This is a problem. The following is an index of all references that I have located to-date in the period before the "ecclesiastical commentators" commenced to write in the second century. I will gather up references from the "ecclesiastical commentators" in a second list later ... Where the date is XXX I dont know it. XXX BCE Homer's use of "chriso" Christian theology has chosen and decreed that the name Christos should be taken as derived from [chrio, chriso], "anointed with scented unguents or oil." But this word has several significances. It is used by Homer as applied to the rubbing with oil of the body after bathing (Il. 23, 186; also in Od., 4, 252). Yet the word Christes means rather a white-washer, while the word Chrestes means priest and prophet, a term which on the surface may appear to be far more applicable to Jesus, than that of the "Anointed," since, he never was anointed, either as king or priest. XXX BCE Erythrean Sybil. [IESOUS CHREISTOS THEOU HUIOS SOTER STAUROS]. The prophecy relates to the coming down upon the Earth of the Spirit of Truth (Christos), after which advent will begin the Golden Age; the verse refers to the necessity before reaching that blessed condition of inner (or subjective) theophany and theopneusty, to pass through the crucifixion of flesh or matter. (NB: This IMO refers to ASCETICISM) The words meaning literally "Iesus, Christos, God, Son, Savior, Cross," are most excellent handles to hang a Christian prophecy on, but they are pagan, not Christian. 470 BCE Aeschylus (Cho. 901) we read of pythochresta the "oracles delivered by a Pythian God" 460 BCE Pindar (pp. 4-10) The words [chresen oikistera] mean "the oracle proclaimed him the colonizer." In this case the genius of the Greek language permits that the man so proclaimed should be called Chrestos. Hence this term was applied to every Disciple recognized by a Master, as also to every good man. 420 BCE Euripides (Ion. 1320) (Eurip. Ion, 1218) Pythochrestos is the nominative singular of an adjective derived from chrao . 420 BCE Herodotus - The word [chreon] is explained by Herodotus (7,11,7,) as that which an oracle declares, and See also Vide Herodotus, 7, 215; 5, 108; 420 BCE Sophocles, Phil. 437. 350 BCE Plato (in Phaed. 264 B) has [chrestos ei hoti hegei] -- "you are an excellent fellow to think . . ." 333 BCE Demosthenes saying [o Chreste] (330, 27), means by it simply "you nice fellow"; Demosthenes, De Corona, 313, declares that the candidates for initiation into the Greek mysteries were anointed with oil. So they are now in India, even in the initiation the Yogi mysteries, various ointments or unguents being used. XXX BCE Pagan classics expressed more than one idea by the verb [chraomai] "consulting an oracle"; for it also means "fated," doomed by an oracle, in the sense of a sacrificial victim to its decree, or -- "to the WORD"; as chresterion is not only "the seat of an oracle" but also "an offering to, or for, the oracle.'' (18) Chrestes is one who expounds or explains oracles, "a prophet, a soothsayer;" (19) and chresterios is one who belongs to, or is in the service of, an oracle, a god, or a "Master" (20); 010 CE Philo Judaeus speaks of theochrestos "God-declared," or one who is declared by god, and of logia theochresta "sayings delivered by God" -- which proves that he wrote at a time when neither Christians nor Chrestians were yet known under these names, but still called themselves the Nazarenes. 090 CE [to chreon] is given by Plutarch (Nich. 14.) as "fate," "necessity." Plutarch (V. Phocion), wonders how such a rough and dull fellow as Phocion could be surnamed Chrestos. XXX BCE/CE? In the Travels of Dr. Clarke, inscription [CHRESTOS PROTOS THESSALOS LARISSAIOS PELASGIOTES ETON IH]; or, "Chrestos, the first, a Thessalonian from Larissa, Pelasgiot 18 years old Hero." Dr. Clarke shows, the word Chrestos is found on the epitaphs of almost all the ancient Larissians; but it is preceded always by a proper name.

02-01-2008, 04:49 PM	#15
JayW Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: dallas.texas Posts: 191	If the title Chrestes was in use prior to Jesus,it isn't surprising it was still in use at the time of his birth. The name Jesus is Greek version of Jessie,or Joshua,and spelled in Hebrew,Yeshua or Yeshu. The Apostle Paul called Him Jesus the Christ,or Christ Jesus, apparantly using Chtrist as a title and not a name. Other places in the Bible refer to Him as Christ Jesus,or more correctly Priest Jesus,or Jesus the priest. There's nothing much to justify in the earlier use off the title Chrestes. Yeshua was a common name in Isreal. Using the title Cristos or Christ singled Him out from all the many other Jesus in Isreal.

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