Diogenes the Cynic

Augustiani.

Diogenes the Cynic

This is incorrect. Augustus was not part of Octavian's name, just an honorific like "Christ." This shows that the suffix could be attached to titles as well as names.

I think it's also a distinction that would have been lost on non-Christian Greeks who heard people talking about worshiping someone with a name that sounded like a common slave name.

stephan huller

I don't believe that you are claiming that Augustus is the same as ho Christos. This is incredible. ho Christos was not a part of Jesus's name. I hate the part in this forum where you have to continue to post just to get someone to admit they're wrong. Okay. You want to believe that Jesus walked around Palestine named Jesus ho Christos and one could substitute ho Christos for Jesus with respect to a -ianus ending in proper Latin, go ahead believe what you want.

stephan huller

Here's the one minute I will spend on this:

"Octavian's official name was now Imperator Caesar Augustus." http://books.google.com/books?id=oHo...ame%22&f=false

"After 27 his official name was Imp(erator) Caesar divi f(ilius) ["son of a god," in this case the now deified Julius Caesar] Augustus." http://books.google.com/books?id=3tu...ame%22&f=false

"Emperor Caesar Augustus Son of God" http://books.google.com/books?id=9ST...ame%22&f=false

"In the Senatorial actions that focused on making his official name Augustus (instead of Octavian) in 27 B.C." http://books.google.com/books?id=t12...ame%22&f=false

I have noticed you have this tendency to support the idea that Jesus really claimed to be 'the Christ.' I don't know why you do this. But the idea that somehow Jesus walked around with credit cards and a driver's licence with the name 'the Christ' on it is absurd. The Latin -ianus and -iani suffix were only added to names of people. This is all the time I am going to spend on this.

Diogenes the Cynic

I don't believe that, no.

First, I'm not trying to be ticky-tack, just accurate. "Augustus" was not a name, it was a title. "Christos" was also a title, and even more, was a title for kings, just like Augustus.

I don't think Jesus, if he existed at all, called himself that, or ever claimed to be that. I think he started being called that after his death. We know that Paul called him that.

You're also presuming that pagans in the Hellenistic world would know that Christos was a title and not a name, especially since they were always getting it confused with "Chrestos," which WAS a Greek name, while "Christos" with an iota was not a common or familiar term at all, being a translation from Hebrew. Don't forget, Christianoi was originally intended to be disparaging and mocking, so expecting pedantic accuracy is like expecting perfect grammar from youtube commenters.

stephan huller

I have read the argument about the 'joke.' Not convincing. Some people even claim that Christiani was older than Augustiani. Where is the evidence for these flights of fancy? What they don't explain is that Augustus was established as the name of the Emperor. Desperate believers. Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus.

Diogenes the Cynic

I see. You're pointing out that Augustiani was used to refer to fan boys of Nero, not Augustus, which is a fair point.

stephan huller

I think I just had a flash on insight from our discussion here. Tacitus may well have thought that Chrestus must have been the head of the Christians because Christos is not a personal name.

stephan huller

Another thing I am noticing reading the ancient acts of the martyrs is that 'Christianus' (or Christianos) is taken to be the name of the individual in preference to his birth name. I don't know what this means but - and I don't know if I am correct about this - 'Chrestianos' or 'Christianos' was the real name of the martyr. I don't know if this helps but it seems to be common.

Huon

The simplest explanation is that in many regions the difference between the two words was not understood. There is certainly a difference in Greek, but not really in the languages of latin origin. In France, we know both family names "Christian" and "Chrétien". Note that in "Chrétien", the letter s has been absorbed. -es- --> é. Chrétien is rather north of France, Christian is more south of France, which has another history of language.

There is an old poet whose name was Crestiens de Troies (c. 1130 - c. 1183).
Now known as Chrétien de Troyes. Troyes is a town which was important at that time, approx. 150 km east of Paris, in Champagne.