d-ray

I was just reading "Have a Nice Doomsday (or via: amazon.co.uk)" by Nicholas Guyatt, a good (but discouraging) read about the prophets of doom currently active in the U.S. In the last chapter Guyatt focusses on Joel Rosenburg, a man who is supposed to be uncannily correct in his predictions and who, like many others, is convinced the end is at hand.
Quoting Guyatt (p. 306) who quotes Rosenburg: "...Joel [Rosenburg] admits that Israel's rebirth is the 'super sign', the most tangible piece of evidence which persuades prophecy enthusiasts that the end is nigh. 'Jesus is clear--once you see the birth of Israel and all of these other things happening, he said this generation will not pass away until you see my coming. So I think the clock started in 1948, although it may have started in 1967...'"
Now this is surely rubbish. Guyatt and Rosenburg were specifically referring to the 24th chapter of Matthew, which passage I have re-read and re-read, as well the parallel passages in Mark 13 and Luke 21. As regards the birth of Israel, Jesus was not clear on this point--as a matter of fact, he said nothing at all about it, at least not that I can find.
It's hard to discuss all three passages at once, since there are considerable variations among them, but in all them Jesus lists signs of the coming end: wars and rumors of wars, false prophets, increase of lawlessness, famines, earthquakes, the stars falling from the sky, etc. But no mention of any rebirth of Israel.
He then goes on to say that people will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; he will gather his elect on the four winds, sky and earth will pass away, and "In truth I tell you, before this generation has passed away, all these things will have taken place."That is, Jesus was predicting the end during his own generation, not ours. The clock didn't start in 1948 or 1967; it was already ticking back then.
Now I have always found this passage clear enough. Of all the passages of prophecy in the Bible, this one is perhaps the most straightforward. It clearly creates serious problems for Christian believers, and I have seen various strategies employed to make it appear that Jesus wasn't saying what he was saying.
E.g., the editors of the Jerusalem Bible say that when he said "before this generation has passed away, all these things will have taken place," he was referring to the destruction of the Temple, not to the end times. I don't buy this. "All these things" means "all these things", and the destruction of the Temple was merely one more sign of the end, which was imminent.
Add to this what Jesus is on record as saying in Matthew 16:27-28: "For the Son of man is going to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will reward each one according to his behavior. In truth I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming with his kingdom." Now what could be clearer than that?
For me the inescapable conclusion is that Jesus was convinced that the end was coming before everyone then alive had died.
Unless I'm reading all of this all wrong. Perhaps someone can comment, especially those who know some Greek, in case the exact wording of what Jesus was saying is important.

motorhead

You will hear all manner of twisted explanation from Christians on how to explain this away but none of them are sound. It's not just Jesus in the canonical gospels predicting his imminent return. It's all through the NT, even in Paul's writings. Clearly, Jesus predicted his imminent return, and his early followers preached his imminent return. It wasn't until late in the 1st century that Christians started to question if the return was going to happen any time soon. In fact, there's a verse in one of the late 1st century NT books where the author attempts to answer people who were probably mocking Christians because Jesus was a no show. The author wrote a day is like 1000 years to God, or something like that. So, if I say Jesus will return in 2 days, it actually means 2,000 years.

Keith&Co.

He wrote that a day is as 1000 years, and 1000 years is as a day.
It means that God is timeless. He is removed from our concepts of duration and separation of events. Ideally, god works to his own schedule and cannot be held accountable to a contracted completion time we made up.

On the other hand, Jesus was speaking to mortals. And if the defense for the Flat Earth imagery in The Books is that biblical terms were couched in the understanding of the time, then 'soon' or 'before y'all taste death' would also be couched in the usage of the audience.

thedistillers

What's the point to come on Earth, resurrect, ascend to Heaven to come back right after?

If Jesus didn't stay with us after he resurrected, surely he wasn't planning to come back "soon".

Or maybe the Jesus story is bogus.

driver8

Indeed. Looks like this rapture list needs updating.

judge

Yes what could be clearer?

There is a bit of a resurgence around in Preterism today, and if it catches on I suspect the result can only be good.
After all if the insitutional church has been so woefully wrong about this, then there will be a strong imperative to ask about what else they may be wrong about.
For example all christian teachings about hell and condemnation are closely tied in to eschatology in general, so any rethinking must mean a rethinking of these doctrines as well.

Decypher

Some Christians think the "fig tree" is a reference to Israel. But that looks like rubbish as you say. The "fig tree" was simply used as an analogy for witnessing the events described in the chapter. And also, the version of Luke says: "Behold the fig tree, and all the trees".

sschlichter

Perhaps, before updating the rapture list you should read on to Matt 17, to read the event that followed this prediction in every gospel. (and is the intended fulfillment.)

Peter's take on the prediction and the event in Matt 17 can be found in 2 Pet 1:16-17.

~Steve

thentian

Obviously, since Jesus said that, somebody from his generation must still be alive! :Cheeky:

Cheers!

Solo

The belief in the imminent collapse of the world and the saviour's return, appears to originate in depressive psychosis. Severe episodes carry with them the hyper-anxious sense of immediate expiry, which in an individual whose boundary of self and the world is severely impaired, projects as the end of the world.

Lk 21:25-26 And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth a distress of a nation in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting with fear and foreboding of what is coming on the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

It is clear that the Early Christians started as a doomsday cult in which the shared experience of paranormal states served as a template for eschatological speculation. It is a given, which simply cannot be argued away, that the ideas of the end of the world originate in psychopathology. Mentally healthy people do not exhibit attachment to morbid ideas.

Jiri