Phlox Pyros

Very possibly. I'd be checking Metzger mainly, so this may be what I'm thinking about.

By the way, your webpage is extremely useful. I noticed you quoting the Greek of Origin on Celsus in another thread. Did I just miss it on your website or did you look it up elsewhere? Thanks.

Febble

I found your original characterisation a straw man. I would agree that that the argument that "Jesus IS God" or "the SON of God" is mainstream Christianity (though to argue that these to statements are different would be to deny the Trinity, which only a small number of sects, notably the Unitarians, do).

But I would argue that the doctrine of the atonement, which was what you originally characterised, is a much subtler and more complex doctrine than the one you caricatured, and that there are many mainstream interpretations of it that are along the lines I gave earlier.

So I will go so far as to take back my straw man argument, but will, instead, argue, that there are large strands of christendom that do not subscribe to it in the form you stated it, including some mainstream theology within the catholic church (which, for better or worse, remains a fairly large strand of christendom).

Possibly, possibly not. All I meant, really, is that it didn't have to be Judas, and it didn't have to be a crucifixion. But a cruel death certainly made a powerful point. I am happy to stipulate that God timed Jesus's arrival for a time when a cruel death was likely. But it strikes me he had a fair bit of choice. The 1940s might have done as well.

FWIW, my understanding of the doctrine of the atonement is that God became a human being (Jesus), and therefore died (as human beings all die) in order to demonstrate that he lives, and suffers within all of us, and at the hands of all of us.

You don't have to believe it (sometimes I wonder whether I do) but it's not a heretical understanding (though, inevitably, over-simplified....)

But you can have your straw man, as long as you accept that it doesn't necessarily blow up the whole of Christianity.

Ben C Smith

No, thank you. I have Origen, Against Celsus 1.47, on my page about the testimonium of Josephus. Someday I will get around to improving navigation on my site. Someday....

Ben.