FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-24-2005, 09:42 AM   #41
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,043
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionary7
Biblical references to back up this statement please.
Sure. The basic prophesies regarding Moshiak and Olam Ha-Ba:

Quote:
Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
The Jesus of the gospels did not fulfill any of them.
Wallener is offline  
Old 04-24-2005, 03:49 PM   #42
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 472
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionary7
Biblical references to back up this statement please.
Jesus, whatever he may or may not have been, is beyond any reasonable doubt not the Jewish messiah. You can check this link for biblical references: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/ha...s_messiah.html

Basically, the only traditional criteria we know he fulfilled was that he was Jewish. He _might_ have been of the line of David as well, since the whole "virgin birth" thing is mythical accretion, but it would be hard to know if he did or did not meet that criteria.

Even if he did meet both of those criteria, he clearly didn't meet the others and there is no point in saying "not yet" because there is nothing in the Jewish tradition indicating a "second coming". The messiah is to come once and fulfill all the criteria.

The argument is quite simple. Since the idea of a Jewish messiah is exclusively the province of Jewish tradition, they are the ones who get to say what the criteria are. Their religious traditions say quite clearly what those criteria are and Jesus quite clearly did not meet them. Period.

You can argue that Jesus was something else, but it is crystal clear that Jesus was not the Jewish messiah.
Skeptical is offline  
Old 04-24-2005, 04:34 PM   #43
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Southwest, US
Posts: 8,759
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionary7
Skeptical aren't you? BTW, A large portion of the Scripture you quoted is already in my head. I am a walking Bible.
You could know the words to the bible forward and backwards, but it is quite a different matter to be able to actually understand them.

Until you realize that the NT is a fatally flawed document, you do not reveal yourself as to having that much of an understanding.
sharon45 is offline  
Old 04-24-2005, 05:51 PM   #44
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 6,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionary7
Jesus cursed the fig tree and killed as a literal metaphor of His power.
What? Are you saying Jesus wrote this down? If you mean a "literary" metaphor, I guess that's what it would be. Surely, you aren't claiming that the scriptures are saying that.

I'm curious to find out how you distinguish a literal metaphor from a figurative metaphor.

Needless to say, you've left me utterly confused. Please clarify.
John A. Broussard is offline  
Old 04-24-2005, 07:24 PM   #45
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Jupiter Station
Posts: 658
Default

Very recently a certain sect of Judaism believed their head Rabbi was the messiah. He died a few years back, so most of those who believed said he must have been an incarnation of the messiah, but it wasn't the right time to come out with it. There are some, however, that broke away from the rest, still believing he's the messiah and that he'll be back, much like Jesus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad

Quote:
* Some Chabad Hasidim hold that Schneerson was the best candidate for Messiah in his generation, but that we now know it was mistaken to believe that he was the Messiah. Rather, he could have been the messiah if God willed it to be so, but it was not to be. As such, the Messiah will come nonetheless as some other great leader.
* Many Chabad Hasidim hold that the classic meaning of death does not apply to a truly righteous person such as Schneerson, as his soul was closer to God than that of an ordinary human being. In this view Schneerson never died, and is still alive in some way that ordinary humans cannot detect. He will return in a more obvious way to proclaim his messiahship (see e.g. Rabbi Levi Yitzchack Ginsberg, of Kfar Chabad Yeshiva, in his book Mashiah Akhshav, volume IV, 1996). Many Chabad Hasidim refuse to put the typical honorifics for the dead (e.g. zt"l or Zecher Tzaddik Livrocho, "may the memory of the righteous be for a blessing") after Schneerson's name.
* Many Chabad Hasidim hold that the Schneerson literally will return from the dead amidst a general bodily resurrection of the dead, and will be proclaimed as Messiah. Although this position is considered by many to be a innovation in Jewish theology, some Chabad Hasidim have developed an extensive literature of prooftexts attempting to show that this is what previous rabbinic literature actually meant.
* A few Chabad followers hold that Scheerson is God incarnate, and worship him as such.
It's not acknowledged there, but it seems to me that this has many parallels with Jesus and Christianity. It looks like whatever aspects of Judaism that gave rise to Jesus and the NT two thousand years ago are still existant within the theology to this day.
LiquidHAL is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 09:14 AM   #46
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: U.S.
Posts: 1,398
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallener
Why shouldn't it be? There is nothing magical about calling someone an 'annointed prince', it's a generic description of leadership and is used all over the place. Context is everything: if I refer to "a prince", you envision Ranier of Monaco, if I refer to "Prince", you envision a short black guy with a funky guitar.

Some prophecies specifically referring to HaMoshiak are...
Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9

Note that the Jesus of the Christian texts failed to fulfill even a single one of these, which, relating back to the OP, is why Jews do not accept him as a messiah.
Again, I'm simply referring to the criteria given in the Jewish site posted which stated that the "messiah" had to be Jewish. Messiah as related to the Judaic tribes or 12 tribes would obviously have political/ethnic connotations, however, we must remember that most religious texts are really not tribal, but tend to be universal, however, the ethnic groups of people who "receive" or maintain the specific traditions always think it is specifically talking about them.
Dharma is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 09:16 AM   #47
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: U.S.
Posts: 1,398
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidHAL



It's not acknowledged there, but it seems to me that this has many parallels with Jesus and Christianity. It looks like whatever aspects of Judaism that gave rise to Jesus and the NT two thousand years ago are still existant within the theology to this day.
I still maintain that the parallels between the Jesus cult and the Christianity that formed around it was forced since the later Jesus cult become more of a non-Judaic solar cult involving human sacrifice and was very pro-Roman and anti-Jewish.
Dharma is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:20 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.