outhouse

its very relevant

because man has created all deities to date.



what do you base your belief on? ill say mythology since you are quoting mythology.

Not just any mythology either, mythology that has already been proven to be in error, written from fantasy and people who had no real grasp on the natural world and reality around them.

so they made it up.


we also see them making up their deities, and defining them based on cultural changes, so the deity will match the new culture

Chili

Are you talking about Holywood now? Or Disney maybe?

TedM

What are you talking about outhouse? I'm not talking about deities 'created' by man. I'm talking about deities or THE deity who created all things. IF he exists, it is independent of whether man has conceived of him or not. Man does not have to create a deity for it to exist. This is so basic that I have to assume you have some other angle you want to explore on the subject than the one I'm interested in. I'm not interested in talking about a deity that is only created by man. That's not what many people who talk about the God who created all things normally refer to, and it is a concept(ie God exists independent of us) that those who follow established religions can certainly relate to also. Why you immediately put that restriction on it is a puzzle to me. It is irrelevant.

TedM

Well you are all assuming incorrectly again then. I have not accepted the tenants of Christianity for 36 years. I've explained my position yet you apparently think I'm deluded. I guess we have something in common: I think you might be a closet atheist but unwilling to admit it, and you think I'm a closet Christian and unwilling to admit it.


No. But when the source of depressing thoughts is an ideology that is grounded in unproven and unprovable speculations (ie God likely wouldn't bother creating us because we are so stupid and he'd be bored by us), then there is no need to face it and embrace it. And when there are alternative explanations (ie God was curious as to what would happen, or all life is an ongoing expression of God's goodness regardless of the subjective feelings of that life, or suffering helps man reach out to God so it is good, or even that God loves to make us suffer, or God was bored so he created 'free will' and the concepts of evil and good to which it would be applied for whatever reasons., etc..) those can be considered too and one should not turn one's back on them.


You have confused my warning about making conclusions--tentative or otherwise--based on speculations about a mysterious Creator God with being equivalent to a recommendation to not consider alternatives. A warning is just that: Hey watch out--you may not know as much as you think you know. Instead of acknowledging the wisdom of this simple observation you became very defensive and accusatory, talking about elephants in the room and such...

While I view this as a diversion that is also totally unnecessary, I'm not averse to this test but I don't know what it is you think will indicate independent confirmation of anything, nor what the value would be. Care to enlighten me as to just what you are aiming for here?

I'll bet that 99 out of 100 people would say that any being that could create this world would be more intelligent than us, and that it is appropriate to agree with the idea that the Creator's mind is likely 'higher' than man's mind (ie the scripture I quoted). 1 person would say that we could be more intelligent--maybe far more intelligent than our Creator. His name would be spin.

Your categorization of parents as 'creators' of children is such a poor analogy to the humans as children of the creator of the universe that it only supports my claim that you are simply trying to win an argument. You are doing so at the cost of your own common sense.

Your reply has little to do with what I said. The tangent regarding what religion provides leaves out the very thing I was addressing: the level of purpose, and the implications of that level. If you are content with a purpose that is limited to your own sociable and inquisitive nature in relation to the world as you know it, and are fine with knowing that it equates to nothing more than mental or psychological masturbation and that your value is no more than that of an ant or spider or whatever other beast that lives with the same guiding purpose, then you have bought into a fatalistic view of your life in the world. And it is sad in comparison to a possible higher purpose.

I have known a higher purpose in my younger days. One that purports to tell us that the ideals we yearn for our whole lives -- love, justice, beauty, knowledge, etc.. are real, and that they aren't grounded in selfish desires, and that they are attainable because our Creator knows we yearn for those and that while in this life we get a glimpse of those ideals, in the next they will be experienced and lived, perhaps in completeness.

I prefer the idea of a greater purpose than your limited worldview allows, and I think it is not a sign of 'delusion' to be open-minded enough to admit that such a greater purpose may indeed exist for us, nor is it contradictory to embracing a rational approach to living one's life. Without a higher purpose all morality and ethics is nothing more than a con game, as the sole purpose of those human inventions is survival rather than to further the higher ideals which we all yearn for.

outhouse

Fact, no deity has ever created anything. So far nature itself is all that is seen.

Fact, scientifically, no deity exist, as there has never been anything one can attribute to any deity


and when people talk about god, they are talking about the abrahamic deity which is 100% born of man created mythology. It is a combination of El, Baal and Yahweh all rolled up into one. This is factual and not up for debate.


In other words all you know and imagine about any deity was factually created by man. You dont have a independant original thought about a deity other then what previous men have layed out for you through mythology

and this is obvious when you start using the word creator unfounded and loosely based only on faith

MrMacSon

"IF he exists, it is independent of whether man has conceived of him or not" ...

... is a classic 'begging-the-question' fallacy. "If" ... lmao.

Because people talk about a "god [who] exists independent of us" does not make that god (or any other god) true.
.

TedM

This is so not true. Many people have little religious upbringing but they have a concept of God as a 'force' or 'intelligent being' without all the attributes given to him in the Bible.

So what? Who says originality is required in order to make something real? I can talk about the Pythagorian theory too and you can raise the same objection. That doesn't make the concept any less real.



It's not a fact outhouse. It is your theory, which by the way isn't original either. Does that make you wrong? No. But it doesn't make you right either. It is speculation based on nothing other than your own limited observations.


Tell that to the Near Death Experiencers. You simply don't know outhouse. I don't either. But your dogmatic proclamations don't admit this ignorance. Even if you are correct, you'll admit there is much we haven't seen. Why be so dogmatic? And why insist that there is no origin when everything that we have observed in action is in response to an active origin? Wouldn't it be more logical to conclude that all existence outside of God came from God (the originator) rather than it always existing?

I know people then ask "well who created God" but to me it isn't hard to conceive that God always existed. For me it IS hard to conceive that the universe always existed. For those that don't, why don't they consider the possibility that the universe IS a MANIFESTATION of God himself (ie God is in every particle of the universe)? My Dad says that it is hard for him to conceive that the universe we live in even exists because it is so mysterious! But, it does. Just my thoughts on it. Others think differently though I can't understand how anyone with intelligence thinks that this universe always existed without intelligence behind its origin.

MrMacSon

Fact: No god has ever been proven.

Fact: The belief is there, but no proof for the object of the belief ("faith").

outhouse

NO

it is factual nothing can be attributed to any deity.

LOL you mean tell that to people who hallucinate after having their brains temporarily rebooted.???

No problem, many test have been done and labs have reproduced all that, showing no such place or thing exist.


admit it !!! you have a empty handful of want and wishes, based on ancient mens mythology because it feels good to leave that possibility open.

You dont have to be honest with me, but atleast to yourself. You have the same odds as if I said you cannot prove pink magical unicorns dont exist.

MrMacSon

Near Death Experiences are merely evidence of semi-conscious states