Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 07-21-2008, 10:03 AM

And what is xian about sarcophagi? Were they also not popular in Alexandria and why should not fashionable Romans use foreign burial methods, especially if they are also using egyptian life after death ideas.

Quote:

Sarcophagus refers to the carved, generally stone case in which the linen-wrapped mummy was placed. The gilded sarcophagus of King Tut with painted face depicting the boy king is probably the best known of the Egyptian sarcophagi. Sarcophagus can be used to refer to a coffin -- especially one of stone.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/s...arcophagus.htm

Clivedurdle · 07-21-2008, 10:46 AM

Quote:

death rite Modes of disposal of the corpse and attendant rites

anthropology

Main

any of the ceremonial acts or customs employed at the time of death and burial.

Throughout history and in every human society, the disposal of the dead has been given special significance. The practice was originally motivated not by hygienic considerations but by ideas entertained by primitive peoples concerning human nature and destiny. This conclusion is clearly evident from the fact that the disposal of the dead from the earliest times was of a ritual kind. Paleolithic peoples, such as the Neanderthals and later groups, not only buried their dead but provided them with food, weapons, and other equipment, thereby implying a belief that the dead still needed such things in the grave. This very significant practice can be traced back to great antiquity, possibly to about 50,000 bc.
The ritual burial of the dead, which is thus attested from the very dawn of human culture and which has been practiced in most parts of the world, stems from an instinctive inability or refusal on the part of man to accept death as the definitive end of human life. Despite the horrifying evidence of the physical decomposition caused by death, the belief has persisted that something of the individual person survives the experience of dying. In contrast, the idea of personal extinction through death is a sophisticated concept that was unknown until the 6th century bc, when it appeared in the metaphysical thought of Indian Buddhism; it did not find expression in the ancient Mediterranean world before its exposition by the Greek philosopher Epicurus (341–270 bc).

The belief that human beings survive death in some form has profoundly influenced the thoughts, emotions, and actions of mankind. The belief occurs in all religions, past and present, and decisively conditions their evaluations of man and his place in the universe. Mortuary rituals and funerary customs reflect these evaluations; they represent also the practical measures taken to assist the dead to achieve their destiny and sometimes to save the living from the dreaded molestation of those whom death had transformed into a different state of being.

http://www.britanicca.com/EBchecked/...#ref=ref538126

Huon · 07-21-2008, 11:38 AM

"Receptus ad deum" is clearly singular.
It cannot be translated by "received amongst the gods" (plural).
But that singular does not say if Prosenes was received by "God" or by "a God". There are no articles "the" or "a" in latin.

Possibly, the suggestion of Clivedurdle (Commodus was a god when Prosenes died) coud be right.

andrewcriddle · 07-21-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

"Receptus ad deum" is clearly singular.
It cannot be translated by "received amongst the gods" (plural).
But that singular does not say if Prosenes was received by "God" or by "a God". There are no articles "the" or "a" in latin.

Possibly, the suggestion of Clivedurdle (Commodus was a god when Prosenes died) coud be right.

Despite the fact that Septimus Severus forced through the deification of Commodus, I would be surprised if anyone's hopes of the afterlife centered on being with Commodus. (He was a very weird person)

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 07-21-2008, 01:36 PM

Andrew, my post on death rituals is directly relevant. The norm throughout history and today is to believe in some form of afterlife - as noted, Buddhism Epicurianism, some other groups and now atheism ( and anthropology) are exceptions.

And who is better than an emperor god? - and all emperors since Augustus were gods so it was not forced - technically the British Queen with her annointing can be seen as a god as well. The behaviour of a god is utterly irrelevant - they are gods for godssake!!

Look up about King James and the King's healing.

andrewcriddle · 07-21-2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

And who is better than an emperor god? - and all emperors since Augustus were gods so it was not forced - .

The really awful emperors were usually not deified.
Commodus was ritually cursed by the senate after his assassination.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...Commodus*.html

Quote:

18 Loud were the acclamations of the senate after the death of Commodus. 2 And that the senate's opinion of him may be known, I have quoted from Marius Maximus the acclamations themselves and the content of the senate's decree:

"From him who was a foe of his fatherland let his honours be taken away; let the honours of the murderer be taken away; let the murderer be dragged in the dust. The foe of his fatherland, the murderer, the gladiator, in the charnel-house let him be mangled. 4 He is foe to the gods, slayer of the senate, foe to the gods, murderer of the senate, foe of the gods, foe of the gods, foe of the senate. 5 Cast the gladiator into the charnel-house. He who slew the senate, let him be dragged with the hook; he who slew the guiltless, let him be dragged with the hook — a foe, a murderer, verily, verily. 6 He who spared not his own blood, let him be dragged with the hook; 7 he who would have slain you, let him be dragged with the hook. You were in terror along with us, you were endangered along with us. That we may be safe, O Jupiter Best and Greatest, save for us Pertinax. 8 Long life to the guardian care of the praetorians! Long life to the praetorian cohorts! Long life to the armies of Rome! Long life to the loyalty of the senate!

9 Let the murderer be dragged in the dust. 10 We beseech you, O Sire, let the murderer be dragged in the dust. This we beseech you, let the murderer be dragged in the dust. Hearken, Caesar: to the lions with the informers! Hearken Caesar: to the lions with Speratus! 11 Long life to the victory of the Roman people! Long life to the soldiers' guardian care! Long life to the guardian care of the praetorians! Long life to the praetorian cohorts!

12 On all sides are statues of the foe, on all side are statues of the murderer, on all sides are statues of the gladiator. The statues of the murderer and gladiator, let them be cast down. 13 The slayer of citizens, let him be dragged in the dust. The murderer of citizens, let him be dragged in the dust. Let the statues of the gladiator be overthrown. 14 While you are safe, we too are safe and untroubled, verily, verily, if in very truth, then with honour, if in very truth, then with freedom.

15 Now at last we are secure; let informers tremble. That we may be secure, let the informers tremble. That we may be safe, cast informers out of the senate, the club for informers! While you are safe, to the lions with informers! 16 While you are ruler, the club for informers!

19 Let the memory of the murderer and the gladiator be utterly wiped away. Let the statues of the murderer and the gladiator be overthrown. Let the memory of the foul gladiator be utterly wiped away. Cast the gladiator into the charnel-house. 2 Hearken, Caesar: let the slayer be dragged with the hook. In the manner of our fathers let the slayer of the senate be dragged with the hook. More savage than Domitian, more foul than Nero. As he did unto others, let it be done unto him. Let the remembrance of the guiltless be preserved. Restore the honours of the guiltless, we beseech you. Let the body of the murderer be dragged with the hook, 3 let the body of the gladiator be dragged with the hook, let the body of the gladiator be cast into the charnel-house. Call for our vote, call for our vote: with one accord we reply, let him be dragged with the hook. 4 He who slew all men, let him be dragged with the hook. He who slew young and old, let him be dragged with the hook. He who slew man and woman, let him be dragged with the hook. He who spared not his own blood, let him be dragged with the hook. 5 He who plundered temples, let him be dragged with the hook. He who set aside the testaments of the dead, let him be dragged with the hook. He who plundered the living, let him be dragged with the hook. We have been slaves to slaves. 6 He who demanded a price for the life of a man, let him be dragged with the hook. He who demanded a price for a life and kept not his promise, let him be dragged with the hook. He who sold the senate, let him be dragged with the hook. He who took from sons their patrimony, let him be dragged with the hook.

7 Spies and informers, cast them out of the senate. Suborners of slaves, cast them out of the senate. You, too, were in terror along with us; you know all, you know both the good and the evil. 8 You know all that we were forced to purchase; all we have feared for your sake. Happy are we, now that you are the emperor in truth. Put it to the vote concerning the murderer, put it to the vote, put the question. We ask your presence. 9 The guiltless are yet unburied; let the body of the murderer be dragged in the dust. The murderer dug up the buried; let the body of the murderer be dragged in the dust."

20 The body of Commodus was buried during the night, after Livius Laurensis, the steward of the imperial estate, had surrendered it at the bidding of Pertinax to Fabius Cilo, the consul elect. 2 At this the senate cried out: 3 "With whose authority have they buried him? The buried murderer, let him be dug up, let him be dragged in the dust." Cincius Severus said: "Wrongfully has he been buried. And I speak as pontifex, so speaks the college of the pontifices. 4 And now, having recounted what is joyful, I shall proceed to what is needful: I give it as my opinion that the statues should be overthrown which this man, who lived but for the destruction of his fellow-citizens and for his own shame, forced us to decree in his honour; 5 wherever they are, they should be cast down. His name, moreover, should be erased from all public and private records, and the months should be once more called by the names whereby they were called when this scourge first fell upon the state."

(This is probably almost the only genuine documentation quoted in the Historia Augusta)

However

Quote:

And yet Severus, a stern emperor and a man whose character was well in keeping with his name, moved by hatred for the senate — or so it seems — exalted this creature to a place among the gods and granted him also a flamen, the "Herculaneus Commodianus," whom Commodus while still alive had planned to have for himself.

Andrew Criddle

youngalexander · 07-21-2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

And what is xian about sarcophagi? Were they also not popular in Alexandria and why should not fashionable Romans use foreign burial methods, especially if they are also using egyptian life after death ideas.

It is not just the sarcophagus but the manner and fact of its inscription and the context.

If Prosenes was a Christian in early 3rdC & holding the positions he did, then he must have had to tread very carefully, as did his freedmen after his death. Looked at in this way, the case provided an interesting insight into the realities of Christian life - perhaps.

yalla · 07-21-2008, 05:29 PM

Well I'm out of my depth totally re Latin but I'm finding the anomalies here fascinating.
The translation I found [as in #34 above] was done by a Professor of Greek and Latin but seems to be different to that noted by Huon in #28.
There is another reference here where the same translator has the same words.
http://www.umich.edu/~classics/progr...torial/dating/

Are we talking the same inscription?

As regards Romans and sarcophagi I found this:
"In the second century, when cremation became less usual, wealthy citizens were embalmed on their death and placed in massive and costly sarcophagi"
from here:
http://www.oldandsold.com/articles22...cture-35.shtml
which would seem to apply to the Prosenes sarchopagus.
This site:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/rsar/hd_rsar.htm
says
"Prior to the second century, burial in sarcophagi was not a common Roman practice ....when the Romans eventually adopted inhumation as their primary funerary practice......Rome was the primary production center in the western part of the empire, beginning around 110–120 A.D. "

Fascinating isn't it?

Ben C Smith · 07-21-2008, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I would be surprised if anyone's hopes of the afterlife centered on being with Commodus. (He was a very weird person).

As anyone who has seen Gladiator can attest.

Ben.

mountainman · 07-21-2008, 07:58 PM

Why Caesarea and Not Rome? Further thought --- where was the next greatest center of greek speaking authors and academics outside of greece in the eastern empire other than Alexandria? The greek language.

RE: PROSENES
the question in this instance is by what logical process this Marcus Aurelius Prosenes is painted by artists of new testament history to be a christian subject. We are dealing with an interpolated gravestone for Christ's sake.

From my earlier review of the The Prosenes Inscription

Quote:

A funerary inscription in Rome from the Severan period, to Prosenes, and a servant of emperor, is claimed to be christian. This inscription is said to be "less securely identified as Christian" for reasons which you are about to perceive:

The grave of Marcus Aurelius Prosenes--set up by several
of his own freedpersons (liberti)--reveals that this
imperial freedman had moved his way through the hierarchy
of imperial service, even holding several procuratorships
(senior positions of considerable influence) under Commodus.

Though nothing in the original inscription
suggests Christian identity,
one freedman named Ampelius
later inscribed on the stone
the fact that Prosenes was

"welcomed before God"
(receptus ad deum) on March 3, 217,
an expression which may best
be explained in terms of Christianity.

(ICUR VI 17246; cf. Mazzoleni 1999: 153).

[Editor: The phrase: "welcomed before God",
clearly, need not have been articulated by a christian mind.
Further, the phrase was added by a later hand.]

Best wishes,

Pete

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07-21-2008, 11:38 AM	#33
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	"Receptus ad deum" is clearly singular. It cannot be translated by "received amongst the gods" (plural). But that singular does not say if Prosenes was received by "God" or by "a God". There are no articles "the" or "a" in latin. Possibly, the suggestion of Clivedurdle (Commodus was a god when Prosenes died) coud be right.

07-21-2008, 01:36 PM	#35
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Andrew, my post on death rituals is directly relevant. The norm throughout history and today is to believe in some form of afterlife - as noted, Buddhism Epicurianism, some other groups and now atheism ( and anthropology) are exceptions. And who is better than an emperor god? - and all emperors since Augustus were gods so it was not forced - technically the British Queen with her annointing can be seen as a god as well. The behaviour of a god is utterly irrelevant - they are gods for godssake!! Look up about King James and the King's healing.

07-21-2008, 05:29 PM	#38
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Well I'm out of my depth totally re Latin but I'm finding the anomalies here fascinating. The translation I found [as in #34 above] was done by a Professor of Greek and Latin but seems to be different to that noted by Huon in #28. There is another reference here where the same translator has the same words. http://www.umich.edu/~classics/progr...torial/dating/ Are we talking the same inscription? As regards Romans and sarcophagi I found this: "In the second century, when cremation became less usual, wealthy citizens were embalmed on their death and placed in massive and costly sarcophagi" from here: http://www.oldandsold.com/articles22...cture-35.shtml which would seem to apply to the Prosenes sarchopagus. This site: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/rsar/hd_rsar.htm says "Prior to the second century, burial in sarcophagi was not a common Roman practice ....when the Romans eventually adopted inhumation as their primary funerary practice......Rome was the primary production center in the western part of the empire, beginning around 110–120 A.D. " Fascinating isn't it?

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