Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NatSciNarg · 12-14-2006, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Blah. If Jesus were a teacher, why did nobody agree on what he taught, either in the first century or the twenty-first?

--
Peter Kirby

I'm not sure that's evidence that he wasn't a teacher, but it could suggest that he wasn't a very good teacher. I bet most of us have had teachers at some time or other that utterly confused their classes.

Matthew

Malachi151 · 12-14-2006, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

I talked to someone who insisted that Jesus' command to love your enemies was completely original. He acknowledged that others expressed the Golden Rule (although most were in negative form, not the positive form like Jesus did.) But no one had ever uttered anything like "love your enemies" which is why the person argued that Jesus was worthy of worship.

Of course, the follow-up question would be, "Is loving your enemies a worthwhile teaching?

The irony here is that "love your enemies" is a complete contradiction of 99% of what the Old Testament is about. Go to Bible Gateway and do a search in the OT on enemies, it goes on an on about harming enemies, so how could Jesus be the same God of the OT then?

Funny enough, the word "enemies" shows up 251 times in the OT in the NIV, and in every case it is a really vile passage, about "destroyed all your enemies", "slaughter your enemies", "make your enemies grovel in pain", etc.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...1=31&bookset=1

Peter Kirby · 12-14-2006, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatSciNarg

I'm not sure that's evidence that he wasn't a teacher, but it could suggest that he wasn't a very good teacher. I bet most of us have had teachers at some time or other that utterly confused their classes.

:devil:

Read what Stevan Davies has to say and get back to me.

--
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby · 12-14-2006, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

It would probably help you if you knew what was meant by Meshalim":

No, it wouldn't, because I did know.

--
Peter Kirby

gstafleu · 12-14-2006, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

It would probably help you if you knew what was meant by "Meshalim":

[...] The meshalim in Hebrew, however, was often intentionally confusing or deliberately obfuscating in nature [...]

Given that, 2000 years on, there is no agreement on what Jesus taught, he at least succeeded with the confusing bit. Even if he was a teacher, I would suggest that doesn't make him a very good teacher. And it throws some doubts on the effectiveness of the meshalim method as well.

Gerard (Jesus the Great Obfuscator) Stafleu

No Robots · 12-14-2006, 12:45 PM

Quote:

It would probably help you if you knew what was meant by "Meshalim"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

No, it wouldn't, because I did know.

Why is it, then, if you knew that meshalim were deliberately paradoxical, that you still find it strange that Christ's teachings inspire debate?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Read what Stevan Davies has to say and get back to me.

Actually, the Davies book looks good. Why do you think, though, that the teacher role is incompatible with the healer role?

No Robots · 12-14-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Given that, 2000 years on, there is no agreement on what Jesus taught, he at least succeeded with the confusing bit. Even if he was a teacher, I would suggest that doesn't make him a very good teacher. And it throws some doubts on the effectiveness of the meshalim method as well.

Just because you don't get it, doesn't mean I don't.:devil1:

Peter Kirby · 12-14-2006, 12:56 PM

The idea of "Jesus as teacher" is that there is some essential philosophy or ideology that Jesus intended to inculcate in his disciples. The point is that the "teachings" of Jesus in the Gospels are not signal but rather noise; the signal is the idea of who Jesus is, his personal authority.

--
Peter Kirby

aa5874 · 12-14-2006, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

I talked to someone who insisted that Jesus' command to love your enemies was completely original.

Jesus was the first God to talk utter nonsense! At least that is original.

Love your enemies, hate your friends, original stupidity.

No Robots · 12-14-2006, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

The idea of "Jesus as teacher" is that there is some essential philosophy or ideology that Jesus intended to inculcate in his disciples. The point is that the "teachings" of Jesus in the Gospels are not signal but rather noise; the signal is the idea of who Jesus is, his personal authority.

Strange. I feel myself coming close to agreeing with this.

I would just say that, as McLuhan pointed out, the medium is the message, ie. the content of Christ's teaching is himself, his person, his "Being".

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12-14-2006, 12:56 PM	#18
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	The idea of "Jesus as teacher" is that there is some essential philosophy or ideology that Jesus intended to inculcate in his disciples. The point is that the "teachings" of Jesus in the Gospels are not signal but rather noise; the signal is the idea of who Jesus is, his personal authority. -- Peter Kirby

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