Malachi151

No, nothing that dramatic. There were the writings about the incarnation of wisdom, and at Qumran some writings talking about "the son of God". These are just fragments, not much to see.

"The son of God he will be called and son of the Most High they will call him." - 4Q246 column 2.

Chili

The virgin birth must be juxtaposed with a non-virgin birth which is the two kinds of rebirth that are available to humans and only one of those leads to a divine comedy. Notice that the firstborn was reborn instead of the second imposter who must be crucified to set the firstborn free. If indeed the imposter does not die the final imposter will be worse than the first and that would be a tragedy indeed (Matthew 27:64 deals with this).

Roland

One of the most common motifs in all of mythology is that of the newborn hero/god threatened with death by a father or king fearful that his own power will be overthrown if the child is allowed to mature to manhood.

Zeus and Oedipus are just two of the most common examples. Heck, even Moses faces a similar fate in his infancy.

jgibson000

Leaving aside the question of whether Oedipus was ever considered a hero (at least along the lines of Achilles or Odysseus), is this motif really "one of the most common in all of mythology"?

Could you please list what you think are the other "most common" motifs in ancient works where mythology is set out and then cite instances to show that in terms of frequency and usage the motif of "the newborn hero/god threatened with death by a father or king fearful that his own power will be overthrown if the child is allowed to mature to manhood" surpasses them all?

Is it the most common of the mythological motifs in the Theogony where there are lots of sons born? Is it more prominent among the mythological motifs noted in the Illiad or Odyssey, or in the Ehoiai or Homeric Hymns than any other found there? Does it take pride of place in The Library or in the Metamorphosis? Is it the primary mythological motif that appears in the great Attic tragedies, extant or reported? On vases? How about in Akousilaos or Pherekydes or Herodotus or Palaiphatos or Konon or Plato or Plutarch or Vergil or Hyginus or Cicero Callimachos or Pausanius?

JG

Chili

I cannot comment on Zeus and Oedipus but Moses was one of those "final imposters" who once parted the water to get into the promised land and it is these that Herod was after and rightfully so.

Roland

Where did I say "it surpasses them all"? You can't know very much about mythology if you don't see this concept of the "threatened infant" as a very common theme.

1). Rhea hides Zeus to prevent him from being devoured by his jealous father, Cronos.

2). Acrisius throws Danae and Perseus into the sea in a wooden chest to prevent Perseus' growing up and killing him as the oracle predicted.

3). Oedipus is cast onto a hillside to die in order to prevent his growing up and fulfilling the oracle that he will one day kill his father, King Laius.

4). Hera sends serpents to kill the baby Hercules in his crib.

5). The infant Moses is placed into a basket and sent down river to prevent his being killed by the vicious Pharaoh.

The story of Jesus having to be whisked away into Egypt in the middle of the night to protect him from the wrath of the fearful King Herod (whose motive in a real world context would be idiotic and laughable) is simply another instance of this all-too-common motif of the threatened hero/god child.

I simply point to the following paragraph from a Jewish apologetics site:

http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizra...efutation.html

The theme of a divine or semi-divine child who is feared by an evil king is very common in pagan mythology. The usual story is that the evil king receives a prophecy that a certain child will be born who will usurp the throne. In some stories the child is son of a god. The mother of the child tries to hide him. The king usually orders the slaying of all babies who might be the prophecied king. Examples of myths which follow this plot are the birth stories of Romulus and Remus, Perseus, Krishna, Zeus, and Oedipus. Although Torah literalists will not like to admit it, the story of Moses's birth also resembles these myths (some of which claim that the mother put the child in a basket and placed him in a river). There were probably several such stories circulating in the Levant which have been lost. The Christian myth of the slaughter of the innocents by Herod is simply a Christain version of this theme. The plot was so well known that one Midrashic scholar could not resist using it for an apocryphal account of Abraham's birth.

Solo

His progeny....you mean Julia ruled Palestine ? News to me, Ben. :huh:

Jiri

Solo

In other words, other than Isaiah 7:14, in which a young woman [almah] gives birth to a boy by the name of Immanuel who will refuse evil and subdue Syria and Samaria, which was read by the author of Matthew (or a later editor) as a prophecy of Mary conceiving a boy named Jesus there is not hell of a lot in Jewish scriptures which deals with virgin births, is there ? :huh:

Jiri

youngalexander

Originally Posted by Roland
Read a story about a man born of a virgin and NOT call it a lie? What, pray tell, would one call it (apart from sheer fiction, of course)? The truth?What has anti-imperial polemic to do with truth?

Solo

It is not a "sheer fiction", it is a mystery - a koan:

Jhn 3:2 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

This, I believe is the original "kernel" of the virgin birth story. Like Jesus' raising bodily from the grave, which arrived as "upping the ante" of the transformational resurrection preached by Paul, and belief that Jesus post-mortem was sitting by the right-hand of God, the virgin story also relates to the resurrectional experience. It's the obverse. A man who experiences resurrection is "born again": for the event of spiritual birth, his mother (of flesh) is a virgin. Matthew and Luke allegorized it to make that obvious to all but the theologians.

Control question: why does John insist (I believe in three places) that Nicodemus made contact with Jesus "by night" ?

Jiri