Freethought & Rationalism ArchiveThe archives are read only. |
12-14-2006, 09:19 AM | #81 | ||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,787
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If Mark wrote both 14.28 and 16.6-7, then he pretty clearly intended them to reflect each other. (IOW, he wants the reader to remember 14.28 when he or she reads 16.6-7.) In that case, the passive in the mouth of Jesus in 14.28 is what we might expect as a precursor to the passive in the mouth of the messenger in 16.6; these verbs mirror each other in much the same way as the verbs in the three passion predictions mirror each other, and the intent would be to link these two passages together in much the same way as the three passion predictions are linked together. There are really only two ways around this. First, you could assume that 16.6 is part of the interpolation. Second, you could assume that 16.6 is original, but that it was never meant to have a precursor in 14.28 or a link to 16.7 (those two verses being interpolations). In either case, you have to assume an interpolation in this argument, so of course you are no longer allowed to conclude an interpolation from the argument. That would be circular. The simple fact is that the passive voice in 14.28 is just what we would expect to link to the passive voice in 16.6 in the text as it stands. Your argument is powerless against that connection; it should not even make the list. To date, your best argument is still your second one read in light of the Fayyum fragment, IMVHO. Cheers. Ben. |
||||
12-14-2006, 10:51 AM | #82 |
Contributor
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
|
JoeWallack, I find the Gospels so inconsistent and contradictory that they virtually make no sense.
Just from reading Mark 14:27 then going directly to verse 29, we see the likelyhood of the interpolation of verse 28. However, if we read, John 20:9, 'For as yet they knew not the scriptures that he must rise again from the dead.' Now, if Mark claims Jesus told his disciples that He will go before them into Galilee after his resurection, why did the author of John say that the disciples were not aware that Jesus would have risen from the dead because they did not know the scriptures.? What sciptures? Did the so-called disciples get all their information of Jesus from the scriptures, the OT, just like the authors of the Gospels? The gospels appear to be filled with interpolation, redaction, copying and fiction. |
12-15-2006, 08:44 AM | #83 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
Quote:
JW: Allright, now I have an avid fan. I feel kind of like Hannibal Lechner going around and slicing up the bodies of christ. Perhaps a nice chiasti to go with that lover (one another). I have to Confess though that I only think 14:28 is rape (forceful insertion). I can't prove it. It hasn't been that long since I made a big deal here about Christians not adequately considering the Distance between what would be good evidence for their assertions and what the evidence actually is. Someone here might remember that. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_14 14:27 "And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered abroad. 14:28 Howbeit, after I am raised up, I will go before you into Galilee. 14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I." JW: If this was History it would be surprising for Peter not to make any response to 14:28. However, this is instead what "Mark" wrote. There might be a Literary reason for this structure. I see "Mark's" Frame as primarily an Ironically Contrasting style that everything in his story is Subject too, even Jesus ("and Jesus was Amazed"). Since I assume this Style though I also have to accept that there might be a reason why "Mark" (as opposed to Editors) wrote something that doesn't sound Historical. The explanation than for why it doesn't sound Historical is not Editing but a Literary Style and I may not even understand in this instance what the specific literary reason was. Regarding 14:28 "Mark" has already created an Ironic Contrast between: 1) What Jesus explains is not important. 2) What Jesus explains is important. 3) How Jesus explains 1) and 2) 4) Reaction to 1), 2) and 3). Teaching/Healing is given in Parables, is not important and is Understood by The Disciples. The Ironic Contrast is: Passion is given in plain language, is important and is Not understood by The Disciples. The Contrast regarding the supposed resurrection is especially skillful by this Author. Jesus first gives Parables that sound Real and because they sound real they are understood. Jesus later gives the Passion in plain language, but because it sounds unreal it's not understood (yes Ben, this is over simplified, there are Parables that are not understood - to make specific points). By the time 14:28 is reached in the Story "Mark" has already established a pattern of deteriorating Disciple willingness, with Peter as archon-Type, to even listen to Jesus' Passion prediction. First Peter/Disciples argues with Jesus, than he/they just think about it and than he/they just Ignore it. So having Peter act in 14:29 like 14:28 hadn't been said does fit the pattern that has been established for Reaction. Peter has no interest in any Passion prediction, he is only interested in defending himself (literally). The bigger Literary problem is that 14:28 is a 180 degree Jew Turn from 14:27. A lot of literary effort went into showing 14:27 as the Text-book example of Disciple Failure. To significantly minimize the significance in the next sentence is a Sign of Editing Reaction. I believe this Type of 180 degree turn is otherwise unused in "MarK". For a good example of this Type of 180 degree Jew Turn see "Matthew's" editing of the first Passion prediction (although here the Right turn precedes the condemnation of Peter). Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page |
|
12-25-2006, 06:28 AM | #84 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
Quote:
Once again UBS betrays: http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_16:7 "But go, tell his disciples and Peter, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (ASV) f1 and pc have: "But go, tell his disciples and Peter, He goeth before you into Galilee who has been raised from the dead: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." Ehrancyman categorizes this as Anti-Separationist corruption. The "Orthodox" X-Uh-Jesus that it was Jesus Christ who was raised from the dead and not just Jesus. Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page |
|
12-27-2006, 06:13 AM | #85 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
JW:
This a 1) Post. Continuing with the Inventory of reasons that 14:28 & 16:7 are Late: 1) The Fayyum Fragment is Script evidence that 14:28 is Late. 16:7 is dependent on 14:28. So if 14:28 is Late, so is 16:7. 2) Peter's response of 14:29 is completely non-responsive to 14:28. 3) It's unlikely that any prophecy would be given by "Mark's" Jesus whose significance would be so reduced in the next line. 4) 14:28 breaks an otherwise Balanced Chiastic structure for the surrounding Verses. 5) 14:28 uses a Passive Form of "raised up" while the 3 Passion predictions use an Active form. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_14 14:27 "And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered abroad. 14:28 Howbeit, after I am raised up, I will go before you into Galilee." (ASV) A Literary problem here is that 14:28 is a 180 degree Jew Turn from 14:27. A lot of literary effort went into showing 14:27 as the Text-book example of Disciple Failure. The Author has carefully constructed a requirement of Discipleship being Affirmation of Jesus in the face of Trials (so to speak. Chuckle, this Author's very good you know). He than gives a Text Book example of Discipleship Failure, Denying Jesus in the face of Trials, with his Disciples for Christ's sake and all to fulfill prophecy! To significantly minimize the significance in the next sentence is a Sign of Editing Reaction. I believe this Type of 180 degree turn is otherwise unused in "MarK". For a good example of this Type of 180 degree Jew Turn see "Matthew's" editing of the first Passion prediction (although here the Right turn precedes the condemnation of Peter). http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Matthew_16 16:18 "And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 16:20 Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ. 16:21 From that time began Jesus to show unto his disciples, that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up. 16:22 And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall never be unto thee. 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men." So, continuing with the Inventory of reasons that 14:28 & 16:7 are Late: 1) The Fayyum Fragment is Script evidence that 14:28 is Late. 16:7 is dependent on 14:28. So if 14:28 is Late, so is 16:7. 2) Peter's response of 14:29 is completely non-responsive to 14:28. 3) It's unlikely that any prophecy would be given by "Mark's" Jesus whose significance would be so reduced in the next line. 4) 14:28 breaks an otherwise Balanced Chiastic structure for the surrounding Verses. 5) 14:28 uses a Passive Form of "raised up" while the 3 Passion predictions use an Active form. 6) 14:28 completely Reverses the point of 14:27 with no apparent Motivation or Explanation for doing so which doesn't fit the Style of "Mark". Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page |
12-31-2006, 02:03 PM | #86 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
JW:
This a 1) Post. Continuing with the Inventory of reasons that 14:28 & 16:7 are Late: 1) The Fayyum Fragment is Script evidence that 14:28 is Late. 16:7 is dependent on 14:28. So if 14:28 is Late, so is 16:7. 2) Peter's response of 14:29 is completely non-responsive to 14:28. 3) It's unlikely that any prophecy would be given by "Mark's" Jesus whose significance would be so reduced in the next line. 4) 14:28 breaks an otherwise Balanced Chiastic structure for the surrounding Verses. 5) 14:28 uses a Passive Form of "raised up" while the 3 Passion predictions use an Active form. 6) 14:28 completely Reverses the point of 14:27 with no apparent Motivation or Explanation for doing so which doesn't fit the Style of "Mark". http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_14 14:28 "Howbeit, after I am raised up, I will go before you into Galilee." http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...er=14&verse=28 "ἀλλὰ μετὰ τὸ ἐγερθῆναί με προάξω ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν" JW: "προάξω" is normally better translated as "lead". Since the Form here is Transitive "lead" is a much better translation. Here France is spot on and points out that 14:28 creates the expectation of Jesus leading the Disciples into Galilee Narrative. The corresponding "Matthew" is at least Intransitive and "Matthew" shows the disciples going to Galilee. As The Cat in the Hat said when told that the picture of the woman he just rolled his tongue out at was the babysitting kids' mother, "Awkward! (grammar)". It's as if 14:28 was taken from a complete Disciples to Galillee Narrative. But Orthodox Christianity would never do that, right Jeff? So, continuing with the Inventory of reasons that 14:28 & 16:7 are Late: 1) The Fayyum Fragment is Script evidence that 14:28 is Late. 16:7 is dependent on 14:28. So if 14:28 is Late, so is 16:7. 2) Peter's response of 14:29 is completely non-responsive to 14:28. 3) It's unlikely that any prophecy would be given by "Mark's" Jesus whose significance would be so reduced in the next line. 4) 14:28 breaks an otherwise Balanced Chiastic structure for the surrounding Verses. 5) 14:28 uses a Passive Form of "raised up" while the 3 Passion predictions use an Active form. 6) 14:28 completely Reverses the point of 14:27 with no apparent Motivation or Explanation for doing so which doesn't fit the Style of "Mark". 7) The Grammar of 14:28 is awkward compared to the Markan Narrative and suggests a different source. Okay Jeff, I even threw in a Cat reference for your benefit. Now are you going to keep wasting time with General accusations or give us some Specifics here? Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page |
12-31-2006, 04:46 PM | #87 | ||||||||
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,289
|
Yep. It has the quality of number one.
Quote:
Do you mean "normally means lead"? "Is best translated as "lead""? And whatever you mean, let's note several things: 1. προάξω is the first person singular indicative active future form of the verb (προάγω) that you, in all of your vast Greek expertise, are making apodictic pronouncements about. So προάξω cannot possibly ever mean (normally or otherwise), or ever be in any way (best or otherwise) translated as, "lead". 2. As Liddel and Scott and BDAG show, "Lead" is not the "normal" meaning , let alone the best translation, of προάγω (not to mention προάξω), especially when it is used, as it is in Mk. 14, with reference to persons, and with a reference of place that begins with εἰς (on this, see C.F. C. F. Evans, JTS 5 [1954] 9; C.E. Evans, Mark: 8:27-16:20, 401;, and B. van Iersel, ETL 58 [1982] 365–70). 3. It's true that the verb is transitive, but as Liddel & Scott and Smythe show, it's when προάγω is intransitive that it most frequently is used to mean "lead". So once again, you show that your claims about Greek and, more importantly, about the grammar and syntax of the Greek of Mk. 14:28, cannot be trusted. Quote:
Quote:
Note to Toto -- so, no one on "your side" ever distorts "the evidence"? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The question is will you avoid answering them as you have done virtually every other time I've "given' them to you. And what's with the capitalizations of "general' and "specifics"? Jeffrey |
||||||||
12-31-2006, 05:12 PM | #88 |
Contributor
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
|
Note to Jeffrey: Joe Wallack's "side" is the counter-missionary one. He is not sponsored by the Internet Infidels or by the vast Jesus-Myth conspiracy. Like you, he is welcome to expound on his theories here on these boards, and we rely on the debate process to arrive at a better understanding of the issues, if not the truth itself.
|
12-31-2006, 05:20 PM | #89 | |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,289
|
Quote:
So who is on "your side". And even if Joseph isn't, does he or does he not distort the evidence he appeals to? Jeffrey Gibson |
|
01-01-2007, 07:20 AM | #90 | |||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nazareth
Posts: 2,357
|
Quote:
Quote:
Not that easy to be funny, is it? I'll let you in on a little secret. I used to do stand up comedy at Mickey Finn's in Minneapolis with Louie Anderson and Jeff Cesario. Could have made it too except for a few things (like timing, sense of humor, dedication, persistence, maturity, dedication). Like they say though it's easier for a Comedian to be a Bible scholar than a Bible scholar to be a comedian. To use the words of Jack Nicolson, "I gotta tell ya man", I like the idea that you don't like me here. That gives you Motivation. You're going to spend the effort to try and find problems with my arguments. Skimming (I love that word) through your post here you did respond to my (and other's) nagging that you critique details but I still have to say that you seem obsessed with my Credibility, at the expense of my (and your) related detail arguments. Should be the other way around. I Am afraid I have a responsibility to point out that prioritizing attacking credibility is the Mark of an Apologist. Now on to the details: Quote:
Quote:
I have a religion to destroy before Jesus SOON returns so let's speed this up. Transitive points towards "lead". Intransitive points towards "precede/go before". I know this, you know this, Bob Dole knows this and the American public knows this. That you are wasting time Avoiding this observation in your entire post communicates that you have no substantive objection to my post. Quote:
http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=%CF...&number=616210 "Word Detail Word/Inflected Form Lemma Part of Speech Lexical Entry προάξω (2) προάγω (20) Verb to lead forward, on, onward Parsing 1st Person Future Active Indicative Singular Related Words προβιβάζω ἐξάγω προκόπτω εἰσάγω προβαίνω προφέρω ὑπάγω παράγω ἐπάγω προπέμπω πρόδρομος ἐπιδίδωμι Context in Mark 14:28 μετὰ τὸ ἐγερθῆναί με ... ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν Strongs # 4254 to lead forward (magisterially); intransitively, to precede (in place or time (participle, previous)) Thayers at Crosswalk Thayer's LSJ (from Perseus)spinner Click For LSJ Middle Liddell (from Perseus)spinner Click For Middle Liddell" JW: This is a Post stopper Jeff. For you to posture that προάξω "cannot possibly ever mean (normally or otherwise), or ever be in any way (best or otherwise) translated as, "lead" is <an error> on your part since I have Faith that you know "lead" is a significant meaning of the word. You can explain your <error> before I go through the rest of your Post but Honestly, what the Hell is wrong with you Jeff? Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page |
|||||
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|