outhouse

I mean's, when someone gets to detailed with limited information, They have no possible way to determine historicity.


By the work they provide


Why are they biased?

DCHindley

You mean something like:

• John Dominic Crossan, Birth of Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk) (1998)
• Marcus Borg, Conflict, Holiness, and Politics in the Teachings of Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk) (1984/1998)
• Eric M Meyers, Who knows what book or article was intended, but likely had to do with excavations in Galilee and Sepphoris.(1)
• Crossan & Jonathan L. Reed, Excavating Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk) (2001)

Versus Fabian Udoh (2006). What was that about later scholarship overturning Udoh's research (I'm sure it was brought current between starting as a dissertation and the publication of the book). Maybe it is the other way around? :constern01:

If you really want to see what a real Marxist has to say about economic oppression, see:

G. E. M. de st. Croix, The Class Struggle in the Ancient Greek World: From the Archaic Age to the Arab Conquests (or via: amazon.co.uk)(1981)

Then I'd also recommend John H Kautsky (the non-Marxist son of a Marxist, Karl Kautsky) The Politics of Aristocratic Empires (or via: amazon.co.uk) (1982/1997). Kautsky was one of the two authors who inspired Crossan to form his "Lenski-Kautsky" model of class struggle.

The other author that influenced Crossan was Gerhard Emmanuel Lenski, Power and Privilege: A Theory of Social Stratification (or via: amazon.co.uk) (1966/1984)

A lot of this speculation about severe economic oppression is related to studies of the Didache, which some think was an manual for oppressed communities that welcomed itinerant prophets and teachers, but also wanted to encourage them to settle down in their villages.

Gerd Theissen hyped this angle in Sociology of Early Palestinian Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk) (translated 1978) and Social Reality and the Early Christians (or via: amazon.co.uk) (translated 1992).

Lots to ponder, yes?

DCH

1) At the 1999 Jesus and the Roman World Symposium, Walter F. Naedele (a staff writer for the The Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper), reports that "Meyers said he had several problems "with [Richard Horsley assumptions" [that "The ministry of Jesus took place precisely in the middle of this history of the disruptive impact of the new Roman world order on the Judean and Galilean people . . . . "A creative response to the . . . debilitating impact of the new Roman imperial order generally short of a suicidal violent revolt was desperately needed . . . Jesus' basic message, his proclamation of the presence of the kingdom of God, is directed to the poor, hungry and indebted.']"

Based on [Meyers'] excavations of houses at an ancient town named Sepphoris, four miles from Jesus' home in Nazareth, Meyers said he thought that at the time of Jesus, "the villagers are quite . . . happy.''

The excavation "led to a wholesale reevaluation of the historical figure of Jesus,'' Meyers said, but the living conditions that were unearthed suggest that Jews at the time of Jesus were not suffering from the excessive taxation suggested by Horsley's "revolt theory.''

stephan huller

I've heard it argued that the 'tax' issue might represent something heavenly - i.e. the seven gatekeepers who demand 'payment' in the form of code words to pass through to the next heaven. that which thou hast just said unto us concerning the soul which receiveth the mysteries:

'If it cometh into the region of the rulers of the way of the midst, they come forth to meet it in exceedingly great fear and they are afraid of it. And the soul giveth the mystery of the fear unto them and they are afraid before it. And it giveth the destiny to its region, and it giveth the counterfeiting spirit to its own region, and it giveth the apology and the seals to every one of the rulers who are on the ways, and it giveth the honour and the glory and the laud of the seals and the songs of praise to all those of the region of the Light,'--concerning this word, my Lord, thou hast spoken aforetime through the mouth of our brother saying of Paul. Paul: 'Give tax to whom tax is due, give fear to whom fear is due, give tribute to whom tribute is due, give honour to whom honour is due, and give laud to whom laud is due, and owe not any other anything,' -that is, my Lord: The soul which receiveth mysteries, giveth apology to all regions. (Pistis Sophia 113)

and also the Philosophumena:

And again He said (H. he says):

“The tax-gatherers and harlots go before you into the Kingdom of the Heavens.” 1

For by “tax-gatherers” (τελῶναι) are meant those who receive the consummations (τέλη = or perfectionings, or completions, or endings, or initiations; also taxes—here a mystical synonym for pleromata/fullnesses or logoi/words) of the universal; and we are the “tax-gatherers” (= or, collectors of dues) upon whom the consummations of the æons have come” (1 Cor. x. 11)

outhouse

Thank you DC, yes I wish I had read a tenth of what you have. As you know, im very new to this study.

I do not know that particular "Meyers", but followed Marvin Meyers when he was alive. Most of that was on NatGeo specials. The others ive read quite a bit of.


Reading some of Reeds recent work, has noted the night and day differences found at Sepphoris and other Galilean first century Jewish sites.

I believe the jest of their case rides on the socio economics, with the building of Sepphoris and Tiberius and the burden of growth being placed on the peasant farmers, tied in with pasages in the bible relating to the poor. Of course regarding the slave trafficking from loan sharks.


Im not sure there is any kind on consensus on the culture of Galilee anyway. It seems the Romans viewed them all as a Zealot haven. And by orthodox Jews as a missmatch of cultural backgrounds that followed Judaism.


Reading one of E. P. Sanders pieces on historical Jesus, he had a great overview of scholarships and three different perspectives and how the different scholarships grew among different scholars regarding poverty and prosperity.


I still like the overview that while Jesus was a child there was a tax war in Galilee [Judas] and the fall of the temple due to tax's , which amounted to jewish suicide.

stephan huller

I've never heard of Marvin Meyers the Biblical scholar before. I found a celebrated almond farmer from Fresno of this name http://www.fresnostatenews.com/2012/...ished-alumnus/

There is of course a Marvin Meyer who died a few months back.

outhouse

That one S cost me I know :worried: lol