Dlugar

Hello all, I'm new to this board, but it looks like a great place to discuss the philosophy of atheism. I've lately been thinking about the "strong"/"weak" dichotomy and trying to understand it better, which led me to Wikipedia, which led me to a discussion with one of the posters here. However, I felt my views were somewhat mischaracterized, so I came here both to try and clear that up, as well as to hopefully spark some good discussion on the subject.

What I've seen in my searching is that there appears to be somewhat of a misunderstanding between strong and weak atheists. It seems like many (but certainly not all) weak atheists have this idea that strong atheists are 100% sure that God doesn't exist, that no evidence could change their mind, and that there isn't the tiniest bit of doubt in their mind that God could possibly exist. In reality, it seems that most (certainly not all) strong atheists believe that God is just as likely as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny--which is to say, very very unlikely, and strong atheists simply use the phrase "God does not exist" in the normal, imprecise way that humans normally use the phrase--not to mean that they have some airtight logical proof of God's non-existence, but merely that God's existence is so vanishingly unlikely that they have no reason to state anything else.

Likewise, it seems like many (but certainly not all) strong atheists have this idea that weak atheists are completely unsure of God's existence, and should more accurately be labeled "agnostics", and think that the existence of God is just as likely as the non-existence of God. While people in this category certainly qualify as weak atheists, I've found that most people self-describing as weak atheists don't fit into this category at all. Rather, it seems that most weak atheists explicitly lack a belief in God, based on research and evidence, and believe that God is just as likely as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. They simply don't subscribe to the phrase, "God does not exist", mostly (it seems) because they want to avoid being seen as someone who thinks they have some airtight logical proof of God's existence, when in reality they simply think that God's existence is vanishingly unlikely.

So while I certainly agree that the definition of a weak atheist is someone who does not believe as true the proposition, "God does not exist," it seems inaccurate to say that weak atheists "aren't sure whether God exists"; even though that might be true in a strictly logical sense, it seems misleading.

I have more to say on this subject, but I've already written a lot here, so let's start here and see how this goes. Thanks much for reading, and for participating in my poll!

-- Dlugar

Selsaral

That was a good opening post. There's certainly been a lot of threads on this subject here on these forums over the last few years.

I think you've summed things up fairly well. I call myself a 'strong atheist' and I think you described my beliefs well above. I constantly bristle at the insinuation that I think I am 100% sure that magical beings can't exist.

I've always thought that weak atheists were skeptical of far-fetched claims, but weren't necessarily armed with all the arguments and knowledge that provide evidence against the existence of magical beings (such as anthropology, comparative mythology, etc).

Howard

I think the choices are incomplete, as they always are (nothing personal) because the poll doesn’t specify the god we are talking about. Is it a specific god, say the Xtian one, or is it a generic god? Is it a deist god or a theist god?

If you’re talking about a specific god, again say the Xtian one, I think you’ll find that strong/weak atheists, even agnostics, don’t differ very much in their doubtfulness. As you move to some vague generic god the differences increase.

I might also add that to most theists it’s a distinction without a difference. You’re either a believer or a non-believer and the degree of doubt is inconsequential.

Howard

Sorry, double post.

Splarnst

I think the existence of God is very improbable, but I consider myself a strong atheist, so I can't answer. I'm not 100% certain, but I still have a positive belief that God doesn't exist.

dettus

The way I see it is that most self proclaimed weak atheists are actually strong atheists that just don't like the "strong label". They then isist that a strong atheist is certain about the non existence of gods.

I am a strong atheist because I consider the god concept to be exactly the same as claims about unicorns, fairies under the garden, or invisble dragons in my garage. I place no speacial consideration to ill or non defined god concepts.

Dlugar

I specifically left it out because I don't think the label "weak atheist" specifies which god we're talking about.

If you're a weak atheist with regard to a generic god, but a strong atheist with regard to the Christian God, then answer the poll with your belief regarding the generic god (since this is a poll for weak atheists).

This is an interesting point, and I wonder if it's true. Is it in fact the case that as you move to some vague generic god, strong atheists and weak atheists diverge considerably? Or is it the case that both strong and weak atheists both consider the non-existence of vague generic gods "slightly less" vastly unlikely than a specific (say Christian) God? I'd be interested in hearing others' opinions!

Steven Mading

I didn't answer the survey question because it assumes an untrue fact: That weak vs strong atheism is a global unchanging property of the person. It's not - It varies with respect to WHICH god you're talking about. In other words, the same individual can be a weak atheist with regards to, say, Yahweh, while being a strong atheist with regards to, say, Zues, and that is NOT a hypocritical stance to take in the slightest - the problem is that the word "God" is waaaay to vague to be able to make useful statements about it until you narrow it down further - but once you narrow it down further you're no longer able to honestly apply your statements to all generic gods.

So to answer the question "am I a strong or weak atheist" or the question "how likely do you think god is?" I first must know "which god do you mean?".

In my case, I am absolutely convinced that Yahweh (By which I mean the common god of Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam) is a fictional character made up out of nothing - the accumulated end result of years of dishonesty. There plenty of evidence about the purely invented nature of the scriptures about him, and about the falsification of history in the narratives about him. I have no problem whatsoever declaring that I am a strong atheist with regards to the Yahweh described in the bible.

One problem is that that's not the only god people have proposed - so I can't apply that stance to all possible gods, just to that one. With the generic question I have to fall back to the weak atheist stance, if only because the theists don't have a consensus on what god actually is, and so the term is way to fuzzy to make absolute statements about it. It's more of a linguistic problem than a logical problem.

Another problem is that even many Christians themselves end up claiming to believe in the Yahweh of the bible despite the fact that through their salad-bar cherry-picking interpretations of the bible they aren't really describing the same god as each other. Just because I think Yahweh is disproven doesn't mean I've disproved their god that they mistakenly claim is the Yahweh of the bible. They might claim they're talking about the biblical god, but with their frequent use of The Metaphor Dodge to basically re-write the bible into something much more palatable, they're really talking about an entirely different god altogether.

So basically the problem is that for me to be a strong atheist I need a tight definition of God that contains enough definitional properties that I can start to find the places where it contradicts with reality. Loosen the definition to the fuzzy nearly meaningless one most people tend to use and I have to fall back to weak atheism.

Dlugar

Of course, you could also say that most self-proclaimed strong atheists are actually weak atheists who don't like the "weak label", but really aren't any more certain about the non-existence of deity than the self-proclaimed weak atheists.

At any rate, the root problem seems to be that, as you say, the weak atheists insist that the strong atheists are something they don't claim to be, and I think frequently the strong atheists insist the weak atheists are something they don't claim to be, either. I'm just hoping that there's some way to surmount the differences and make both sides understand how similar they are (and highlight what real differences there are, if any).

Dlugar

I agree that it varies; if I had asked the question, "Are you a weak or a strong atheist?" I probably would have added specifics as to which god was being discussed.

However, I didn't mean for my poll to assume any untrue facts. If you like, you can read it more along these lines: "If, with regard to any particular deity, deities, or concept of god in general, you consider the phrase 'weak atheist' to best describe your position with regard to that deity, which of the following statements best describes where, along the spectrum of all possible weak atheists, you fall?" That is the question, albeit a bit more verbose, that I originally intended to ask.