Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 10-01-2009, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

I don't think the story of the Exodus is a story of monotheism but henotheism. It is the victory of Israel's god over the Egyptian gods - who are real enough, just not as strong as him.

True, I was using the wrong "-theism".

Kritikos · 10-01-2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atimetorend

From the linked article: The authors always present their interpretation of the archaeological data but do not mention or interact with contemporary alternative approaches. Thus the book is ideologically driven and controlled.

I generally disagree with this statement. Just because someone is presenting their interpretation of the facts as they see them doesn't mean it is ideologically driven and controlled. That's a strong statement, saying the outcome of the studies were predetermined by the author's bias. Certainly presenting opposing viewpoints can demonstrate objectivity, but lack of it does not prove hopeless bias. It sounds to me like a canned apologetics statement, and likely more indicative of apologetics than scholarly study.

Archaeologists should consider "alternative approaches" -- you know, the way homeopathy is "alternative medicine" and intelligent design is "alternative science." :Cheeky:

lpetrich · 10-01-2009, 11:28 AM

I checked some more on the question of "Ahmose" as "Ah Moshe" ("Brother of Moses").

I checked in Wikipedia on the Hebrew version of

Ahmose, and the Modern Hebrew transcription of that name is yod-ayin-het-mem-samekh (yahmes).

I also found out that the Hebrew word for brother is written aleph-het, without the ayin sound.

So it's an almost-fit.

Kritikos · 10-01-2009, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

This reminds me of my pet theory, that the Exodus is a mangled memory of the expulsion of the Hyksos nearly a millennium before the Babylonian Exile. [Etc.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

I checked some more on the question of "Ahmose" as "Ah Moshe" ("Brother of Moses").

I checked in Wikipedia on the Hebrew version of

Ahmose, and the Modern Hebrew transcription of that name is yod-ayin-het-mem-samekh (yahmes).

I also found out that the Hebrew word for brother is written aleph-het, without the ayin sound.

So it's an almost-fit.

The theory that the biblical Israelites were the Hyksos and the biblical pharaoh was Ahmose was famously advanced by Simcha Jacobovici in a slick video produced by James Cameron called Exodus Decoded. I am not sufficiently instructed in these matters to argue about them with you, but Jacobovici's work bears clear marks of woo: for instance, he has no scholarly qualifications in archaeology but claims to have made discoveries that overthrow the consensus among those who indisputably do have such qualifications. The Wikipedia article on the video contains a summary of objections that have been leveled at Jacobovici's effort. Here is the paragraph on Ahmose:

Quote:

As in Hebrew the word 'Ah' means brother, and 'Mose' means Moses, Jacobovici claims that the word Ahmose can be understood as 'brother of Moses'. This however is incorrect, as actual hieroglyphics in the pharaoh's name read Yahmes. 'Ahmose' is a mangled obsolete misreading of the name, still used traditionally. Yahmes has nothing to do with Hebrew Ah Mose, and means 'moon born' or 'moon is born'. Furthermore, Moses is an English version of the Greek variant of the traditionally Hebrew Mosheh. Egyptian would have differentiated between 's' and 'sh' in Mose / Mosheh.

More detailed treatments may be found at these sites: "Debunking The Exodus Decoded" (Bryant G. Wood); "Viewer Beware: The Exodus Decoded" (Ronald Hendel); "Exodus Decoded" (Christopher Heard).

semiopen · 10-01-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kritikos

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

This reminds me of my pet theory, that the Exodus is a mangled memory of the expulsion of the Hyksos nearly a millennium before the Babylonian Exile. [Etc.]

The theory that the biblical Israelites were the Hyksos and the biblical pharaoh was Ahmose was famously advanced by Simcha Jacobovici in a slick video produced by James Cameron called Exodus Decoded. I am not sufficiently instructed in these matters to argue about them with you, but Jacobovici's work bears clear marks of woo: for instance, he has no scholarly qualifications in archaeology but claims to have made discoveries that overthrow the consensus among those who indisputably do have such qualifications. The Wikipedia article on the video contains a summary of objections that have been leveled at Jacobovici's effort. Here is the paragraph on Ahmose:

Quote:

As in Hebrew the word 'Ah' means brother, and 'Mose' means Moses, Jacobovici claims that the word Ahmose can be understood as 'brother of Moses'. This however is incorrect, as actual hieroglyphics in the pharaoh's name read Yahmes. 'Ahmose' is a mangled obsolete misreading of the name, still used traditionally. Yahmes has nothing to do with Hebrew Ah Mose, and means 'moon born' or 'moon is born'. Furthermore, Moses is an English version of the Greek variant of the traditionally Hebrew Mosheh. Egyptian would have differentiated between 's' and 'sh' in Mose / Mosheh.

More detailed treatments may be found at these sites: "Debunking The Exodus Decoded" (Bryant G. Wood); "Viewer Beware: The Exodus Decoded" (Ronald Hendel); "Exodus Decoded" (Christopher Heard).

Simcha is an orthodox Jew and wants the Exodus to be historical. He "found" Mt Sinai by assuming the Hebrews could travel 16 km/ day (might even have been miles)... no simple feat for 3 million people.

My understanding is that there is some controversy over whether the Hyksos actually invaded Egypt and conversely whether they were expelled.

Kritikos · 10-01-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Simcha is an orthodox Jew and wants the Exodus to be historical. He "found" Mt Sinai by assuming the Hebrews could travel 16 km/ day (might even have been miles)... no simple feat for 3 million people.

My understanding is that there is some controversy over whether the Hyksos actually invaded Egypt and conversely whether they were expelled.

Oh, he's got an agenda, all right. I find it interesting that, of the three debunking sites on Exodus Decoded, the author of one is a professor of religion at a conservative Christian university (Christopher Heard of Pepperdine University) and the author of another is the research director of a biblical inerrantist organization (Bryant Wood of Associates for Bible Research). (The third, Ronald Hendel, is a professor of Hebrew Bible at UC Berkeley.) Even scholars who presumably would welcome evidence of the historicity of the bible find Jacobovici's arguments thoroughly unsound!

Diogenes the Cynic · 10-02-2009, 09:18 AM

Jacobovici also made the "Jesus Tomb" documentary, and he's got a cable show called "The Naked Archaeologist" which is pretty much devoted to trying to prove the historicity of the Hebrew Bible. He's a film maker with no archaeological credentials and, while I believe he is intelligent, a slick talker and can sometimes seem convincing in a superficial way (I saw him dominate a discussion with credentialed scholars after the Jesus Tomb special, even though he was completely wrong. He's one of those apologists who knows how to argue and keep his opponents off balance, especially if they're not accustomed to public debate), he's basically full of shit when you get right down to it.

Having said that, I think it's fairly well accepted at this point that the Exodus myth was probably inspired on some level, sometime by the Hyksos expulsion, but connecting that specifically to the distinct cultural group of Israelites is unwarranted by any evidence at all.

Minimalist · 10-03-2009, 09:00 AM

The answer is in the signature.

Quote:

Richard S. Hess, Ph.D.
Professor of Old Testament
Denver Seminary

This makes his first comment - that the book is "ideologically driven and controlled " somewhat ironic.

Finkelstein uses archaeological evidence rather than bible fables to present his case. One suspects that Mr. Hess would not know archaeological procedures if they bit him on the ass.

Celsus · 10-03-2009, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Having said that, I think it's fairly well accepted at this point that the Exodus myth was probably inspired on some level, sometime by the Hyksos expulsion, but connecting that specifically to the distinct cultural group of Israelites is unwarranted by any evidence at all.

I don't buy the Hyksos connection at all tbh. I'm more a fan of the Apiru-in-Egypt connection if anything at all.

What I'm curious about, however, on what grounds would Jesus-mythicists buy the Hyksos connection as a root of the Israelite Exodus myth, while denying a HJ existed? In my opinion the Hyksos connection is far more tenuous than between the gospels and Jesus' alleged non-existence.

Clivedurdle · 10-03-2009, 12:10 PM

As a matter of interest, what is the earliest acknowledged dating of Genesis, Exodus etc. What variations are there?

Alexandria had three critical vectors - it was continually translating and updating Homer for new generations, it did "translate" the Septaguint and of course, it was in Egypt.

As Homer was updated, might the Hebrew Bible have been? West Side Story and Romeo and Juliet....

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-01-2009, 11:28 AM	#53
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I checked some more on the question of "Ahmose" as "Ah Moshe" ("Brother of Moses"). I checked in Wikipedia on the Hebrew version of Ahmose, and the Modern Hebrew transcription of that name is yod-ayin-het-mem-samekh (yahmes). I also found out that the Hebrew word for brother is written aleph-het, without the ayin sound. So it's an almost-fit.

10-02-2009, 09:18 AM	#57
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Jacobovici also made the "Jesus Tomb" documentary, and he's got a cable show called "The Naked Archaeologist" which is pretty much devoted to trying to prove the historicity of the Hebrew Bible. He's a film maker with no archaeological credentials and, while I believe he is intelligent, a slick talker and can sometimes seem convincing in a superficial way (I saw him dominate a discussion with credentialed scholars after the Jesus Tomb special, even though he was completely wrong. He's one of those apologists who knows how to argue and keep his opponents off balance, especially if they're not accustomed to public debate), he's basically full of shit when you get right down to it. Having said that, I think it's fairly well accepted at this point that the Exodus myth was probably inspired on some level, sometime by the Hyksos expulsion, but connecting that specifically to the distinct cultural group of Israelites is unwarranted by any evidence at all.

10-03-2009, 12:10 PM	#60
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	As a matter of interest, what is the earliest acknowledged dating of Genesis, Exodus etc. What variations are there? Alexandria had three critical vectors - it was continually translating and updating Homer for new generations, it did "translate" the Septaguint and of course, it was in Egypt. As Homer was updated, might the Hebrew Bible have been? West Side Story and Romeo and Juliet....

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.