Ben C Smith

Perhaps not. But there is always that startling claim by Tertullian in Apology 50:

Plures efficimur quoties metumur a vobis; semen est sanguis Christianorum.

We multiply whenever we are cut down by you; the blood of Christians is seed.

Even allowing for exaggeration, this sounds like martyrdom was not all bad for the conversion rate.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

That is a very good addition to the list.

Ben.

JohnG

Interesting that many different altered states could have possibly shaped the theistic view in so many different ways. I was just reading about Saul's journey to Demascus and wondering what inspired that story.

Dreams probably played a massive role in the early shaping of human superstition. It probably inspired thoughts of a soul, or ghosts, or afterlife. Having a dream about a deceased loved one can be an emotionally powerful event. It seems as if they are somehow still present.

Thanks for producing that quote from Ezra, DCHindley. It indicates a ritualistic ingestion of a mind altering substance from those paragraphs. The link you provided discussed a first hand account of a "trip" with amanita muscaria. It described nausea, hallucinations of creatures, aphrodisiactic properties, and confusion. It discusses that it is best ingested with cannabis to control the nausea.

It doesn't sound pleasant, but that's me.

The historical timeline made no mention of use in the middle east, although it's use has been documented since 5000BCE in Siberia. I read via the link provided by Toto about J Allegro about a mosaic in the Basilica of Aquileia, dating from before 330 AD, that appears to be a basket containing amanita muscaria.

Toto: I was speaking specifically about Tertullian's conversion, bad wording on my part. Reading Tertullian, he doesn't come across as the type to be easily swayed. Also, I think I was a little disturbed by the imagery the text presented.

Considering how important all these mind altering methods are to nearly all cultures, at all times, I think it has to be taken into account when researching religious origins and doctrine. It may be the missing piece of the puzzle for my own research.

Clivedurdle

http://www.stanfords.co.uk/stock/the...-india-158497/

Michel woods in this drinks something thought to be Soma - and it isn't mushroom based.

DCHindley

Quite right. Wasson noted in his book that modern Indian opinion is that Soma was either derived somehow from cannabis indica or a product of fermentation of some other plant. Wasson's opinion that it was amanita muscaria is new, but has a fair amount of modern support I understand (in other words, it ain't totally out in left field).

DCH

Zeichman

You may want to familiarize yourself with social-scientific work on ancient "altered states of consciousness." Bruce Malina (natch) and Richard DeMaris are at the top of the field. I'll give you a hint: drugs ain't it.

JohnG

Thanks very much. I quickly searched for an online essay by Bruce Malina and Richard DeMaris, didn't find anything immediate (I may purchase a book however) but found this article (for a start):

http://www.mcmaster.ca/mjtm/4-4.htm

It discusses altered states being achieved through fasting, lack of sleep, fervent prayer, day dreaming, glossolia (non-meaningful speech), alcohol intoxication, creative states(?), dance, music trances...

It also discusses alternate realities. I am a little skeptical of that idea, however I will more on that (maybe I misunderstood the concept)

Zeichman: are there any online articles you may have bookmarked that you could point out to me?

This very helpful.

spamandham

I've seen tons of speculation on this online. I have no idea if any of it holds up under scrutiny, but claims I've seen in various places online are:

- manna (food from god) was actually magic mushrooms
- the body and blood of god refer to the meat of the mushroom and a kind of drink made from it
- the tree of knowledge referred to mushrooms
- the bitter herbs drank by the Jewish priests were hallucinogens made from wormwood (like genuine absinthe)

JohnG

Since this idea occurred to me I have found quite a bit of speculation on this as well. Some of the sources are very "far-out" looking sources, if you get my drift.

I mentioned in my OP that I believe these people to be intelligent, yet superstitious. For me, a non-theist, it's difficult to read about visions, resurrections, miracles, hysteria, blind faith, and the like without considering the possibility of altered states (of some sort) being in the mix.

Heavy narcotics seems like an obvious answer. They're quick, effective, relatively easy to come by, and quite powerful. They produce visions, epiphany, and can be ingested in any way with little or no preparation, and don't take any mental training or practice to achieve an altered state. They can also be distributed easily to many people.

I doubt that there were the conservative social stigmas attached to hard drugs in those times, so it's really not that far fetched of a thought. It's not as if narcotics are uncommon in this society or any others.

I also realize that there may be little or no documentation dating to those periods that reference any type of drug use - but if there was, I figured this would be the place to find out.

I think the post by Zeichman segues into some very interesting concepts as well. There may be more to the subconscious than we experience in our modern lives that may account for some, or most, of this type of behaviour.

I think I can safely say that a theist would think that the reason that Saul (for example) had a vision on the road to Damascus was because he actually was visited by the resurrected Jesus. Or that the reason the Christians so bravely martyred themselves in the face of horrible death was because of their relationship with Jesus.

In my opinion, that type of behaviour is typically associated with psychosis or heavy drug use/sedation.

I am not as far ahead in these types of studies as many here. There are cases that may shed light on this by studying modern death cults, and the behaviour associated with them.

I am mostly interested in the study of history, but I can't help but wonder what drives the hardcore theist when I read about these cultures. It's completely foreign to me.

IIDB is already shedding some light on this in short order.

Clivedurdle

Food of the Gods: The Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge A Radical History of Plants, Drugs, and Human Evolution by Terence Mckenna (or via: amazon.co.uk)