spin

What in the text makes you think that HRH indicates a future, when it appears to be an adjective which for example is translated in the plural in Amos 1:13 as pregnant women? Gen 16:11 has an angel telling Hagar that she is pregnant (HRH). Gen 38:24 uses HRH to mean "pregnant", as does Ex 21:22, etc.


spin

Phlox Pyros

Nope. I watched the movie. Good movie. I just didn't see the attempted analogy as relevant (but of course I wouldn't ).

I feel I would just be rehashing to respond further at this point. I would be very happy if you could point to uses of almah somewhere other than the 7 or so in the HB, or if you could point me to the specific "comparative linguistics" book to which you are referring. There are plenty.

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Mod warning: do not edit moderator comments. If your post had been an insult, the edit would have said insult. It was just off topic to this thread. Please drop it.

spin

You haven't started dealing with the point, unless your repeated ignoring of it from the beginning is what you meant.

As a start try Bynon or Lehmann, both called Historical Linguistics, both venerable.

You forget that there is not just (LMH, but also other forms in the Hebrew bible. Check both (LM and (LWMYM. However, some of those seven uses of (LMH help you to understand the word, but you are trying this backdoor hapax legomenon rubbish, as a special plea to ignore (LMH: well it's only used seven times -- and I pointed you to some of those uses. Reaction? You took no notice, not even when you get men lying with nubile girls, (LMWT, reference already given. The term is a physical one, the person is ripe for, or has reached, adulthood. In Sanh 95 a young woman can be entrusted with a document, ie she is not in the care of nurturing parents, obviously not being considered as a virgin. The notion of the Palmyran "harlots", puts the woman into a sexual context, which is quite appropriate for the general significance of the term, though it has become more specific in Palmyran...

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spin

Toto

Historical Linguistics (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Bynon et al, searchable on Amazon

Amazon reviewers like Historical Linguistics (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Campbell better.

Winfred P. Lehmann, Historical Linguistics: An Introduction (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Phlox Pyros

No. I mean we're just going round and round on points.

That's not much of a reference. I don't believe they deal specifically with semitic linguistics, though, do they? This is what I thought you were pointing to with the Aramaic and Palmyran references.

spin

How convenient for you.
These are the points:

1. we are dealing with a prophecy which is relevant to Ahaz regarding the coming impact of Assyria on Samaria
2. the impact will happen before the child of a now pregnant woman reaches the ability to choose between good and evil
3. there is no scope for the word BTWLH in the text -- it is neither necessary nor sheds any extra meaning to the prophecy
4. the Greek word parQenos is not restricted to mean only "virgin", but can refer to women who are not virgins as the Sophoclean example I provided shows
5. the significance of (LMH is relatively clear and relates to the nubility of the young woman
6. the text indicates that the woman is pregnant
7. the text is parallelled by the birth of other children in the same part of Isaiah and must be read in that context -- one of which also deals with the coming impact of Assyria on Samaria (with no hang up on virginity)
8. the translation of the LXX is so patchy that it is extremely difficult to rely on the translation of a particular single word to eke out meaning different from the Hebrew text, particularly when that Hebrew text is attested to at a very early stage

The idea is to give you a foundation in comparative linguistics so that you know something about what you are trying to talk about.

Just look at BDB for a start, (LM II. for some data. Use Tynon and/or Lehmann for a basis for using it.


spin

Gamera

The fact that the tense of the giving of the sign is future, followed by a behold or look (hnh -- so I assume, I don't have my hebrew text with me) followed by the almah being pregnant. It does appear that that the pregnant girl is the very sign Isaiah wants to draw our attention to.

Gamera

The difference is the jewish pseudographia and epigraphia I quoted is not nonchalantly messianic. They are vehemently purposely messianic, and they appear to be talking about a very special person not just any old king.

Gamera

Resolve the issue of whether saying some woman or other will get pregnant and have kid called Immanuel is a "sign."

If it Immanuel is equivalent to "John," ie. is a common name, then it really isn't very helpful as a sign, is it, to say some woman or other will have a kid with a common name. That really isn't much of a sign.

It's like God saying: "I'll send you a sign: behold, a young woman will have a son and he will be called John Smith."

Yeah, thanks God. Could you be a little more specific.

I think you and I have a disagreement about what a sign is supposed to do. I think it's supposed to (a) be noticable, and (b) signify something. Some woman or other having a kid with a common name (something that's happening right now) hardly qualifies as a sign.

Apikorus

Well apparently it was a helluva sign, since Isa 7:14 is the only instance of the name Immanuel in the entire Hebrew Bible.

Nota bene: The construction (MNW )L occurs three times in the HB, in Isa 7:14, 8:8,10. In the latter two instances, it is not used as a proper name, but rather as the expression "God is with us" (as is clear in 8:10 from the appearance of the particle ki = "because"). At any rate, it is 100% clear that neither 8:8 nor 8:10 is referring to an individual named Immanuel other than the one in 7:14.

Since you are probably reading "Immanuel" in English, you may miss the orthographic distinction between this theophoric name, which is a compound construction with a space in the Masoretic Text between (MNW and )L, and other el-theophoric names such as $MW)L = Samuel, YXZQ)L = Ezekiel, DNY)L = Daniel, etc., which don't contain a space. This is yet another example of how exegesis is sometimes slaved to translation.

spin's reading of Isa 7:14, which I find to be the most plausible grammatically and contextually, is that the woman is already pregnant but the birth and naming are in the future.

By the way, you can access the full vowelled Hebrew text online at Mechon Mamre. The full consonantal Hebrew text, plus Greek LXX and Latin Vulgate, are available through the Blue Letter Bible site.