Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 04-10-2007, 12:08 AM

1 Cor 13:13 And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

You'll note that some of this Pauline material is hidden in Chris's passage. And not strangely, the central issue, given the structural analysis I charted, is love.

Trying to deal with the content, first we have a speaker that could be male or female, though I tend to feel it's male -- perhaps tendentiously --, so I'll call him Elroy. One notes that Elroy is talking to someone who has just paid him a compliment, which he can't accept, but the interlocutor -- let's tendentiously call him/her Tony/i -- is seem as a peer by Elroy, such that Elroy can be honest and open to Tony/i. That's the dramatic context as far as I can see at the moment.

Trying to age Elroy turns out to be quite difficult. There is the Holden Caulfield fake/phony teenage identity deal which seems to flow through the passage. Adults are all phonies but our job is to try to have reality. Yet Elroy isn't a teenager: he's old enough to think of children as a possibility in his life, though a distant possibility. In fact, he's had one or more serious bouts with love and has been pained by it, so the range of age spreads from late teen to late 20s.

However there are general problems of language which leave me unsatisified with the text. We have the modern young fake/phony/facade language, which goes well with the inner conflict of being "a perfectionist who'll never become perfect" and "overly optimistic, yet at the same time a pessimist to the core". Then we have strangely much older phrases such as "boon of life" and "remain steadfast in peace" -- who would use such religious sounding expressions? Such conflicting languages suggests either someone who doesn't have enough control of their medium or a modern translator who is having difficulty rendering the ideas of the text being translated any other way.

When Elroy says "So that's the real me", he actually hasn't said very much at all to be convincing to Tony/i or me about the real him. At the same time it seems, assuming that English is the native language of the writer, we are dealing with baby-boom angst of knowing too much for one's own good, having read too much (perfectionist, pessimist, critical, cultivated) and not done enough in this world.

spin

Chris Weimer · 04-10-2007, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Very strange, non-English sentence.

RED DAVE

Sorry for the interjection, but it sounds like perfect English to me. Perhaps you are just confusing it for "not idiomatic to RED DAVE English"?

Ted Hoffman · 04-10-2007, 01:27 AM

It employs a chiastic structure as illustrated by spin. It is written by a male author who is childless and who is a newbie in a profession he seeks to be a giant in. He has employed dialogue to communicate his feelings. He also employs paradoxes as seen in "I've a weak will, but I'm stubborn to death" for stubborn people have strong wills. Love is both a blessing and a calamity. That too is paradoxical. Paradoxes show that the author is locked in conflict. The author also employs rhetorical questions to engage the reader.

Its melancholic mood exposes the author's state of despair while he contemplates his life and death. The author is locked in dialogue with the society, which represents an antithesis to his entire worldview. He believes he has seen the light and he would like others to see it too.
Self-pity flows freely in his stream of despair which is interrupted by self-adoration and hope. The dark rivulets that fill his river of despair include the author's unanswered questions (about god and about greatness), his childless state, his nobodiness in his field, unrequited love, his fallibility and neurotic desire for perfection, his powerlessness over his (impending) death, his abiding optimism in the face of unrelenting disappointment and insatiable thirst for knowledge.

From a psychiatric perspective, the patient should get laid.

Nazaroo · 04-10-2007, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Code:

A. But I disagree with you. 
 B. I'm not great.
  C. I'm a fraud.
   D. I'm a phony. 
     E. I've put up a facade.
       F. I've a weak will, but I'm stubborn to death.
         G. I'm overly critical, even of myself, a perfectionist
         who'll never become perfect.
            H. I'm overly optimistic, yet at the same time a pessimist
          to the core.
       I. What hope do I have in this world? But I live yet.
     J. And what of faith? Have I none, but what you may think
            to be god I may differ on.
    K. And of love?
   L. Love has pained me before;
             M. it's a trial,
                    N. a terrible calamity,

2B- What does it mean to be great? (dislocated)

                    n. a curse.
             m- It's a blessing as well,
   l - a boon to life,
     k - the reward if cultivated right.
        j - It heals.
          i - That's love.
           h - And while I may not believe what you believe what you
            believe, I believe still.
        g - And these tears I shed every night contain some glimmer
           of hope, that even though I know that to die is to gain,
           perhaps I can still live longer before I go. For what?

       [pseudo f - In the end, it'll all be gone, but not before my children
          can see the light, assuming I have children at all.] -INTERPOLATION

      f - And perhaps, just perhaps I may be exactly what I wish to
         be, the best in my field, and having learned all that I'm
         content with knowing, though I learn more still.
     e - For one day I'll stop being so stubborn, and let the world
        pass me by while I remain steadfast in peace.
    d - So that's the real me,
   c - the true me,
  b - the honest me.
 a - Do we agree?

Reconstructed result

RED DAVE · 04-10-2007, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazaroo

Reconstructed result

Cute, but in the absence of the source, no justification. Has the effect of shifting some of the thrust from love to faith. Again, no justification.

RED DAVE

robto · 04-10-2007, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

That's all?

Well, unless you can assure us that it's not something you just cobbled together as a tease, yes. It seems a pretty pointless exercise in that case.

I'm really enjoying spin's analysis, tho. Great stuff! (Even if it is a fake quote.)

RED DAVE · 04-10-2007, 04:20 PM

I'm going back to something near my original concept. I think this is from a translation of a 19th Century Russian novel.

The cadence, the confessional mode, the somewhat stilted language, all point away from something American. I still haven't the foggiest what that structural thing means.

RED DAVE

Clivedurdle · 04-11-2007, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

This is a known work, with a known author, and all its sources are known as well. It's only a short paragraph, meaning that you ought to be able to work your magic instantly. The only context you'll get is that it was in a dialogue. No hints for a while, but if you work as a team and present something, I may just possibly adduce some more context. Have fun!

But I disagree with you. I'm not great. I'm a fraud. I'm a phony. I've put up a facade. I've a weak will, but I'm stubborn to death. I'm overly critical, even of myself, a perfectionist who'll never become perfect. I'm overly optimistic, yet at the same time a pessimist to the core. What hope do I have in this world? But I live yet. And what of faith? Have I none, but what you may think to be god I may differ on. And of love? Love has pained me before; it's a trial, a terrible calamity, a curse. It's a blessing as well, a boon to life, the reward if cultivated right. It heals. That's love. And while I may not believe what you believe what you believe, I believe still. And these tears I shed every night contain some glimmer of hope, that even though I know that to die is to gain, perhaps I can still live longer before I go. For what? In the end, it'll all be gone, but not before my children can see the light, assuming I have children at all. And perhaps, just perhaps I may be exactly what I wish to be, the best in my field, and having learned all that I'm content with knowing, though I learn more still. For one day I'll stop being so stubborn, and let the world pass me by while I remain steadfast in peace. So that's the real me, the true me, the honest me. What does it mean to be great? Do we agree?

Where does the work begin? With the word "This".? Is this too post modern for me?

spin · 04-11-2007, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Where does the work begin? With the word "This".? Is this too post modern for me?

The first paragraph is Chris's explanation for why he has posted the second, an unprovenanced paragraph. Just imagine the first paragraph was in italics and introduces the second. OK?

Clivedurdle · 04-11-2007, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

The first paragraph is Chris's explanation for why he has posted the second, an unprovenanced paragraph. Just imagine the first paragraph was in italics and introduces the second. OK?

But Chris is a moderator here - he knows how to quote stuff properly, he can probably carry out the holy of holy of rituals here - infidelise amazon links - I think not using quotes or the quote button is deliberate to mislead us!

What happens if we take the text as a whole - we have been asked to analyse what is in front of us - all I have done is ask what exactly is in front of us!

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04-10-2007, 12:08 AM	#71
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	1 Cor 13:13 And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love. You'll note that some of this Pauline material is hidden in Chris's passage. And not strangely, the central issue, given the structural analysis I charted, is love. Trying to deal with the content, first we have a speaker that could be male or female, though I tend to feel it's male -- perhaps tendentiously --, so I'll call him Elroy. One notes that Elroy is talking to someone who has just paid him a compliment, which he can't accept, but the interlocutor -- let's tendentiously call him/her Tony/i -- is seem as a peer by Elroy, such that Elroy can be honest and open to Tony/i. That's the dramatic context as far as I can see at the moment. Trying to age Elroy turns out to be quite difficult. There is the Holden Caulfield fake/phony teenage identity deal which seems to flow through the passage. Adults are all phonies but our job is to try to have reality. Yet Elroy isn't a teenager: he's old enough to think of children as a possibility in his life, though a distant possibility. In fact, he's had one or more serious bouts with love and has been pained by it, so the range of age spreads from late teen to late 20s. However there are general problems of language which leave me unsatisified with the text. We have the modern young fake/phony/facade language, which goes well with the inner conflict of being "a perfectionist who'll never become perfect" and "overly optimistic, yet at the same time a pessimist to the core". Then we have strangely much older phrases such as "boon of life" and "remain steadfast in peace" -- who would use such religious sounding expressions? Such conflicting languages suggests either someone who doesn't have enough control of their medium or a modern translator who is having difficulty rendering the ideas of the text being translated any other way. When Elroy says "So that's the real me", he actually hasn't said very much at all to be convincing to Tony/i or me about the real him. At the same time it seems, assuming that English is the native language of the writer, we are dealing with baby-boom angst of knowing too much for one's own good, having read too much (perfectionist, pessimist, critical, cultivated) and not done enough in this world. spin

04-10-2007, 01:27 AM	#73
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	It employs a chiastic structure as illustrated by spin. It is written by a male author who is childless and who is a newbie in a profession he seeks to be a giant in. He has employed dialogue to communicate his feelings. He also employs paradoxes as seen in "I've a weak will, but I'm stubborn to death" for stubborn people have strong wills. Love is both a blessing and a calamity. That too is paradoxical. Paradoxes show that the author is locked in conflict. The author also employs rhetorical questions to engage the reader. Its melancholic mood exposes the author's state of despair while he contemplates his life and death. The author is locked in dialogue with the society, which represents an antithesis to his entire worldview. He believes he has seen the light and he would like others to see it too. Self-pity flows freely in his stream of despair which is interrupted by self-adoration and hope. The dark rivulets that fill his river of despair include the author's unanswered questions (about god and about greatness), his childless state, his nobodiness in his field, unrequited love, his fallibility and neurotic desire for perfection, his powerlessness over his (impending) death, his abiding optimism in the face of unrelenting disappointment and insatiable thirst for knowledge. From a psychiatric perspective, the patient should get laid.

04-10-2007, 04:20 PM	#77
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	I'm going back to something near my original concept. I think this is from a translation of a 19th Century Russian novel. The cadence, the confessional mode, the somewhat stilted language, all point away from something American. I still haven't the foggiest what that structural thing means. RED DAVE

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