sotto voce

Indeed I am. I noticed your edit, even. And the absence of explanation for it.

It makes no difference. You posted about the Qur'an, in a thread about the Qur'an, which was entirely legitimate. Then you started an assault on Christianity. There is nothing at all more predictable that, within minutes of a disproof of Islam (or Catholicism) in favour of Christianity appearing on the 'net, the attack switches onto Christianity. No bookmaker would offer odds against it.

Now how about discussing those passages in the Qur'an? Or is the Qur'an no longer of interest?

Perhaps I have?

mrsonic

why would a muslim apologist say that the quran has authours?
it seems to me that muslims and christians believe in any bs. how is it that a guy who does all these amazing miracles in both qur'aan and bible doesn't get anymention outside of these books?

sotovoce you would have been a marcionite christian had catholic christianity not gained power.

mrsonic

I skimmed through this pm and thought that frdb require that i post the link.



Dear mrsonic,

You have received a warning at FRDB.

Reason:
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-Advisory Warning

You quoted several paragraphs from an unnamed source. I'm pretty sure that your source is Richard Carrier - but it is important for you to actually give the source to avoid copyright problems.

Please be careful. FRDB takes copyright very seriously.
-------

Duvduv

Interesting question to ponder:

Is it possible to identify the form of Christianity reflected in the Quran (despite some errors) that accepted the Niceno-Constantinople Trinity of the end of the 4th century and its idea of a virgin birth and important role of John the Baptist (Yahya), YET at the same time that viewed Mary without a husband Joseph and Jesus as a messenger or some kind of generic messiah to the Jews only but without any post-Nicene Pauline concept of salvation or Davidic qualifications (Bethelehem) from the Hebrew Scriptures??

sotto voce

Catholics will make equivalent concessions in order to win converts.

No one can be a Christian and a Marcionite. No one can be a Christian and a Catholic. Can they. It's that word 'christ' that gets in the way in both cases.

Now we already know that there is not the smallest possibility that Christianity is false, but Qur'anic conceptions of Jesus may nevertheless still be of interest. That word 'christ' stuck in the gullet of the authors of the Qur'an, and it may be instructive to learn how they pretended not to be in pain.

sotto voce

It may seem that there is no need for such a hypothesis if one supposes that the Qur'an was intended as a deliberate attack on Christianity (and therefore on Judaism, that tended to confirm the truth of Christianity merely by its existence). If one supposes that the Qur'anic authors sat down with a whole Bible and attempted to confect a story that supported a new religion along the lines available to them, the Qur'an as known presently is as close a result as one may expect, for theological reasons. There is no need to check on correspondence or otherwise with the works of pagans of 'Christendom'. Iow, the Qur'an is very predictable. One might even say it was inevitable, at the time, in the place, that it originated.

Duvduv

Could be, but I think there are too many elements for it to be premeditated. It still seems like second-hand information even with communities of Jews and some type of Christians in that region.

Duvduv

I think the solution is that the writers of the Quran absorbed information coming from different sources.
So it is conceivable that the story of Mary included the information that she was a virgin but that in a gospel story such as Mark they learned that she was mentioned without any reference to Joseph and put the two together, implying that the virgin bore her son alone.
The same pattern could have involved the Baptist who is also briefly mentioned in Mark but whose birth story came through GJohn, which also gave the Quran the notion of Jesus the word - Kalam - despite being simply human.
And of course the authors heard about a vague notion of the Trinity but never heard about Paul.

Huon

Jesus is the son of Maryam and the Spirit of Allah. Joseph is not important.

Duvduv

Yes, I know that. I was exploring how this came to be historically the quranic narrative.