Chris Weimer

Ted Hoffman did the same to me also, Jeffrey. I guess we're not "atheist" enough.

gstafleu

One petty miracle ain't much, agreed. But then we have this "This is my blood of the covenant..." bit, which to this day is still ritually re-enacted in many churches.

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu

Maybe I have labored under a misapprehension, but until now I've been under the impression that the idea that Jesus was a mortal form of god-come-down-to-earth was reasonably wide spread.
Going by Chris' translation we have "I, child of Zeus, have come to this land of the Thebans". I will admit to an assumption here, and that is that "land of the Thebans" refers to Thebes. As far as I know that city resides/resided on earth. So there we have the "coming down to earth" bit.

Then we have "Changed my shape from god to mortal," which I would say takes care of the "in human form" bit. Good enough?



Gerard Stafleu

Toto

A few posts that were a little too personal were split off here.

pharoah

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the relevance of this. If the people who came up with the virgin birth story actually did borrow it from Greek mythology, would it make any difference that earlier sources didn't make the claim? Especially since their view now has the upper hand.

For instance, if I make the claim that Roman mythology borrowed wholesale from Greek mythology, is it relevant to the question at hand to state that the earliest forms of Roman religion made no mention of Zeus?

jgibson000

Based on what primary evidence? And widely spread among whom in the first century CE?

We do? Dionysus was born and reared on earth. His cult centers and his regular areas of habitation are on earth. There is nothing in his mythology (as it is recounted in Hesiod, the Homeric Hymns, Pseudo Apollodorus, Alkaios, Pherekides, the Scolia, Epimenides, etc.) or in Euripides that suggest that he resides in "heaven" or, mor importantly, when he comes to Thebers (the place of his birth) to initiate his cult there, he comes "down" to earth, let alone that he comes from "heaven".

No, it's not. And not by a long shot. The idea here is the same as we see in Od. 1, 2, 3 and 22 in Athena's taking on the guise of Mentes and then Mentor (and in Book 7 of a little girl and in Bk 16 of a youth) -- that Dionysus has altered his appearance and disguised himself, not that he has become a mortal or that he has somehow emptied himself of his "divinty" in doing so.

Jeffrey Gibson

jakejonesiv

Hi Gerald,

Excellent point!

According to Euripdes Bacchae, Dionysus becomes the wine himself as an offering to the gods.

"Apart from wine, there is no cure for human hardship. He, being a god, is poured out to the gods, so human beings receive fine benefits as gifts from him. "

Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many..." Matt. 26:27-29

Holy Transubstitution!

Jake Jones IV

P.S. If I were to ever use a moniker, it would be Ultra Crapidarian! That is so cool!

Chris Weimer

Yes it is! The earliest Roman religion shows no trace of Greek influence, so to say that the entire Roman religion is based on Greek mythology is likewise the same as saying Jesus was fabricated by Hellenistic/Persian mythology. It's flawed as it doesn't consider the earliest sources.

Skeat's science of etymology has a list of essential canons to be followed.

Canon 1: "Before attempting an etymology, ascertain the earliest form of the word."

Likewise, before attempting to compare mythologies, ascertain the earliest material. Anything less is useless.

Canon 2: "Observe history and geography; borrowings are due to actual contact."

This is numero uno why Indian culture did zilch for the Hellenistic Jews.

Canon 8: "Casual resemblances between words in two unrelated languages which cannot well be brought into connexion are commonly a delusion, not to be taken seriously."

(Emphasis mine) And this is why the "Jesus is merely a rehashing of Persian and Indian myths" is utter bunk. Casual reseblance, unrelated cultures, no connection...conclusion: delusion.

JoeWallack

JW:
Hmmm, and this comes from someone with the screen name "GakuseiDon" (did you pay Jeff not to make fun of your name?). I can think of another reason why you really would not love to answer. Besides, some questions are better left unanswered.

As far as weird use of capitals being the source of a headache how do you know that Athena isn't about to come out your forehead? Oh look, Jeff responded to the question even though he swore on a Bible he wouldn't respond to "Jeff" (probably was just a KJV anyway). By The Way G-D I suggest you never try to learn German.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

I'm A Substitute




JW:
Normally, Professors tend to answer questions, not ask them. Unless the Assistant Associate Visiting Professor is like Fred. You've created a Strawman Jeff by taking Skeptical observation here of Similarities between Laddie Di and Jesus and Posturing a Skeptical position that Dionysus was a Direct source for Jesus. I suppose that after this Post you will take Eusebius the Lion, Jesus the Tonman and head off to see the Wizard. So now we can slap a dress on you and call you Dorothy.

Why don't we just try to Save a lot of time here and even more hilarious insults by considering the Big picture. There were Sources for the Christian presentation of Who and Purpose of Jesus. Which of the following is the best Source:

1) Historical Jesus.

2) Pagan Mythology.

3) Jewish Bible.

4) Original and unrelated composition.

This is the Important question Jeff. So stop wasting time with Stawmen and either answer or continue evading it.



JW:
Don't you think you should first be familiar with the language of Blade before you try to assume what I Am referring to? It makes you look Amatuerish. I suggest you check with the resident Blade professional, Jake Jones IV, before you embarass yourself further.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page