Freethought & Rationalism Archive

patchy · 05-11-2006, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

G'morning!

While this does tend to simplify the issue somewhat, essentially it is correct.

What most of the people on this forum fail to realize is that you (we - *each* of us) have already *earned* a death sentence, and that we all live and breathe by the *Grace* of God quite literally. He can withdraw this Grace at any time and still be perfectly within His Province.

Humans have no buisiness (not to mention the capability of) judging God. As the Bible points out, He is the Potter and we are (again quite literally) the clay. We are dust, people, and Yahweh is GOD. He keeps the universes spiralling and fuels every star, yet still knows every thought each of us have before we have it.

Awesome!

If you can't be humble in the face of that, then I doubt anything else I say will mean anything at all. - Jesse.

Christianity's ability to just suck the fucking brains right out of people is something I never get completely used to seeing; it still retains the ability to surprise me, again and again, that people will willingly lobotomize themselves over these tired-ass old fairy tales.

Jesse Leigh · 05-11-2006, 08:44 AM

Morning Gamera!

I only have a moment here.

While the Bible declares inarguably that, "God is Love," Ezekiel also tells us that the four *dominant* attributes of God are, Justice, Wisdom, Power, and Mercy. We also know that God extends "Grace" on a daily basis to humans. He is not any one "Essence," as you put it, but if He were to have a main one, according to our Lord Jesus, then it *would* be Love.

As far as deserving the "death sentence," all of us do. Anything we do that is outside of the Will of God in thought, word, or deed is deemed to be "sin." The penalty for sin=death. I guarantee there is no one on earth who has reached "the age of reason/understanding" never mind on this forum who has not *earned* the death penalty. I've probably had several "self"-ish thoughts today unintentionally, but then this is the end of the day for me since I generally work the night shift.

- Jesse.

P.S. Of *course* I care. I simply don't view God as you do. I also think it's beyond audacious to even contemplate judging one's Creator. Kind of like spitting into the wind, as they say, or biting the hand that feeds you. No? (I'm assuming that for debating purposes God is "real" (as in, "exists" ) in this thread, since you're trying to assign Him a less than complimentary attribute...?)

post tenebras lux · 05-11-2006, 08:49 AM

So Jesse, you're saying that I earned a death sentence by thinking outside the 'Will of God'?

How do I know that I am thinking outside the 'Will of God', please?

Sven · 05-11-2006, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

That's the unusal response of voluntarists of the middle ages, the most prominent of which was Duns Scotus, from which we get the word "dunce."

Christianity rejected voluntarism (the idea that the essence of God is his will and he can do anything he wants which by definition is right), and embraced the view that the essence of God is love, not power.

So no Christian would give this "usual response," unless they are ignorant of church history, which I admit, most religious rightwingers are (but they aren't Christians in my opinion in any case)

I just love this post after posts #4 and #7! :thumbs:

Jesse Leigh · 05-11-2006, 08:55 AM

I'm not at all ignorant of "Church history," as you put it, but neither am I interested in organized religion. In my experience it has very little (if anything) to do with God, and is as much of a racket as all other institutions. - Jesse.

Sven · 05-11-2006, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

As far as deserving the "death sentence," all of us do. Anything we do that is outside of the Will of God in thought, word, or deed is deemed to be "sin." The penalty for sin=death.

1) Which sins have new-born babies commited? Or even the 2/3 (I'm quoting from memory here) of the fetuses which get aborted naturally?
2) What exactly is not evil about this principle that sin=death? As Jack said: "you aren't arguing that God is NOT evil: you're simply declaring that you don't care."

Quote:

P.S. Of *course* I care.

No, you don't. Otherwise you would agree that your god is evil. *shrug*

Quote:

I simply don't view God as you do. I also think it's beyond audacious to even contemplate judging one's Creator.

Why? If humans created self-aware robots, these would have every right to judge their creators. I also note that you did not address Genesis 3:22.

Quote:

Kind of like spitting into the wind, as they say, or biting the hand that feeds you. No?

Correct: No.

Quote:

(I'm assuming that for debating purposes God is "real" (as in, "exists" ) in this thread, since you're trying to assign Him a less than complimentary attribute...?)

It's called reductio ad absurdum. Look it up at some time.

Jesse Leigh · 05-11-2006, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

So Jesse, you're saying that I earned a death sentence by thinking outside the 'Will of God'?

How do I know that I am thinking outside the 'Will of God', please?

G'morning post tenebras lux!

Learn it. If you want a driver's licence you learn the rules of the road, yes? If you want to live on earth and "in union with Christ and the Father" then you have to know what God's Will is. Hint: The short version can be found at Matthew 22:37-40.

Have a sweet and peaceful day - Jesse.

Jesse Leigh · 05-11-2006, 09:33 AM

G'morning!

I see that you now assume that Christians don't speak/know Latin. Fascinating.

I happen to agree with you that this is an absurd thread, but the reason why you are reduced to discussing it eludes me. Perhaps you should pick a subject that is incitoum. - Jesse.

Sven · 05-11-2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

I see that you now assume that Christians don't speak/know Latin. Fascinating.

Where exactly do I assume this? Hint: Knowing Latin and understanding what reductio ad absurdum is about are two different things.

Quote:

I happen to agree with you that this is an absurd thread

Proving what I said above. Employing reductio ad absurdum in no way means that one thinks that the topic is absurd. I already said you should look it up. *shrug*

Quote:

but the reason why you are reduced to discussing it eludes me.

See above.

Quote:

Perhaps you should pick a subject that is incitoum. - Jesse.

I don't know any Latin (except for the parts used in math and science), so I simply have to assume that "incitoum" is Latin and wait for someone to translate it.

ETA: Given that not even google knows this word, it's probably a typo. But I've no idea what's the proper spelling.

Meanwhile, how about addressing the rest of my post? Ironic statements about three words which you either don't understand or simply want to make fun of don't exactly make a convincing argument.

RUmike · 05-11-2006, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

I'm not at all ignorant of "Church history," as you put it, but neither am I interested in organized religion. In my experience it has very little (if anything) to do with God, and is as much of a racket as all other institutions. - Jesse.

"Organized religion" is what produced your Bible, so in fact, you and it are deeply woven together.

05-11-2006, 08:44 AM	#12
Jesse Leigh Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the Coastal Mountains in BC Canada Posts: 125	This'll have to be a quickie.... Morning Gamera! I only have a moment here. While the Bible declares inarguably that, "God is Love," Ezekiel also tells us that the four dominant attributes of God are, Justice, Wisdom, Power, and Mercy. We also know that God extends "Grace" on a daily basis to humans. He is not any one "Essence," as you put it, but if He were to have a main one, according to our Lord Jesus, then it would be Love. As far as deserving the "death sentence," all of us do. Anything we do that is outside of the Will of God in thought, word, or deed is deemed to be "sin." The penalty for sin=death. I guarantee there is no one on earth who has reached "the age of reason/understanding" never mind on this forum who has not earned the death penalty. I've probably had several "self"-ish thoughts today unintentionally, but then this is the end of the day for me since I generally work the night shift. - Jesse. P.S. Of course I care. I simply don't view God as you do. I also think it's beyond audacious to even contemplate judging one's Creator. Kind of like spitting into the wind, as they say, or biting the hand that feeds you. No? (I'm assuming that for debating purposes God is "real" (as in, "exists" ) in this thread, since you're trying to assign Him a less than complimentary attribute...?)

05-11-2006, 08:55 AM	#15
Jesse Leigh Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the Coastal Mountains in BC Canada Posts: 125	P.S. Gamera I'm not at all ignorant of "Church history," as you put it, but neither am I interested in organized religion. In my experience it has very little (if anything) to do with God, and is as much of a racket as all other institutions. - Jesse.

05-11-2006, 09:33 AM	#18
Jesse Leigh Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the Coastal Mountains in BC Canada Posts: 125	Sven G'morning! I see that you now assume that Christians don't speak/know Latin. Fascinating. I happen to agree with you that this is an absurd thread, but the reason why you are reduced to discussing it eludes me. Perhaps you should pick a subject that is incitoum. - Jesse.

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05-11-2006, 08:49 AM	#13
post tenebras lux Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Republic and Canton of Geneva Posts: 5,756	So Jesse, you're saying that I earned a death sentence by thinking outside the 'Will of God'? How do I know that I am thinking outside the 'Will of God', please?

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