The Evil One

Not "just as feasible", Magus. "Jesus didn't exist" requires that we posit that someone made him up. "the OT predicts the NT" requires that we posit that the supernatural exist.

Now it is proven that human beings are capable of making things up, whereas it is not proven that the supernatural exists.

So it is much LESS likely that the NT account is the result of fulfilments of prophecy than that it is the result of made-up fulfilments of prophecy.

I agree that rlogan is overstating the case, however. The fact that most of what is said about Jesus can be pointed at some other source than a real living jesus does not necessarily mean there was no HJ. What it means is that we can never know if there was an HJ, and even if there was, we can never know anything about his life.

mrmoderate

This is true. The U.S. does go against the grain when it comes to history. I suppose I should have used the USSR as a more recent history altering example. Other than the most current U.S. history, history is not prone to put the historical victors in a negative light.
Just how were Chistians victors?

Herod is not portrayed very nicely in the bible or by Josephus, both sources of which are simply discounted by those who oppose Christianity.

Just how is Pilate shown in a positive light? Just because Pilate is shown treating the Jesus issue more diplomatically than Pilate is portrayed elsewhere? We must take the perspective of the witnesses who authored these writings into account. How did the author view what was happening? To the biblical authors, Jesus would not have been tried by the Romans if it had not been for the insistance of the Sanhedrin (referred to as "the Jews")

Clivedurdle

I recommend using Dake's annotated Bible for this! He has scoured the old testament to show how all the NT was prophesied in the OT. All you need do is reverse engineer his thinking and arguments - he has linked every possible OT saying with the NT.

NOGO

Is there anything about Jesus not in the Hebrew Bible?


The virgin birth.

Of course the answer to the question depends on who you ask.

How about the fact that Jesus created the world as GJohn and Paul tell us.

In Genesis there is no hint whatsoever that an entity other than Elohom or Yahweh created the world.

But then Paul tells us that it was all secret from the begining of time until Paul's time when the key to interpreting sceiptures was given.


So the real answer to your question is that there cannot be.

NOGO

It is useless to hang on to an HJ of whom we know nothing about.

It begs the question.
Why did early Christian writers need a real man if they retained nothing from him?

Somehow the HJ is like a crutch which you need but you don't know why you need it.

What did the man do that was essential to the story?

rlogan

Ahh... I think we're at Mark 3:20-21 here? I want to make sure.

In my KJV it says his friends think he's "beside himself"

I think there are a couple of things going on as far as "rejection" in general - That would be the theme of isaiah 53 of course. (Such a pathetic creature described there!)

Then we have Mark 6:4 stating the prophet is not respected in his own country or town or family.

So I take this to be ancient folk wisdom that is nothing particular to Jesus. Rather, is is an element of folk wisdom that would naturally be incorporated.

There are some other elements of this Mark 3 passage that i don't want to run off on a tangent without making sure first that is what we are discussing.



Ya. And JBapt is also no unique innovator on this theme of "God coming".

rlogan

Hot Damn!

Thank you.


There will of course be two different types of "prophesy fulfillment" - the ones that the original gospel perps put together, and ones that were subsequently dug up by others.

Certainly there are agendas being served in the construction of the so-called "new testament". Elements of this agenda will not be foretold in the HB, and I do have to consider this. Studying those very things ought to be interesting in its own right.

NOGO - the virgin birth is Isaiah 7:14. That mistransaltion has been discussed in other threads, and I think it is strong evidence of the thesis.

yes, I see what you are saying about the "there isn't anything".


Magus and Mmoderate. We'll just agree to disagree, shall we?

mrmoderate

Quite true. It seems a bit of a stretch that Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." but that is exactly what Matthew has done in Matthew 1:23.
Maybe not directly related to the creation of the world but certainly when God got to creating man He spoke in a plural sense; Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make nan in our own image....." which certainly implies there was more than one entity. This enforces the plurality of God and supports notions such as the Trinity. While Christian doctrine has assigned three seperate but equal parts to God it is perfectly consievable that God can have as many parts as is needed.
This sounds a bit Gnostic. Could you post a passage?

the_cave

I'm sorry, what is the HB?

Shulammit

undefined who shall uplift the people and she shall call him Immanuel. This young man shall give the Jews hope where there was no hope and light where none was to be found...Issiah.... :boohoo: