Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ZooMom · 10-04-2004, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

Hey!!!

:thumbs:

I'm sure he meant that in the nicest possible way.

jdlongmire · 10-04-2004, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Well, now, I would say that everything in Creation has the capacity to be beautiful. But purely physical beauty? No. Physical beauty is relative.

...and Truth?

Evoken · 10-04-2004, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

...and Truth?

Truth? Nothing is true.

jdlongmire · 10-04-2004, 07:03 PM

Then it is true that nothing is true?

Evoken · 10-04-2004, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

Then it is true that nothing is true?

Nope all statements are false including this one.

jdlongmire · 10-04-2004, 07:08 PM

then it is true all statements are false including this one?

g'night

ten to the eleventh · 10-04-2004, 07:19 PM

[QUOTE=ZooMom]

Quote:

Did you mean 'because God created MAN with the capacity to do evil'? That is what the Free Will debate is all about, my friend.

And 'evil' as a concept was present before Man's fall. Lucifer and the bad angels, and all that. I believe in free will. So I have no problem saying that God, in His creations, allowed for the possibility of evil, which is disobedience to God's Will. Obedience = good, disobedience = bad. Can God be in opposition to His own Will?

I was responding to the way that you had been framing it, in the Platonic sense. To get into the free will debate is to frame God's goodness in another way, a way that does not demand that it is logically impossible for God to do wrong by the standards He created. To speak of God as you did, in the Platonic sense of the embodiment of Good, suggests that no bad whatever can ever come from God, like having a big box of M&M's and getting an apple out of it.

To recap: If "goodness" or "badness" is within our capacity to judge through reason, and God has established the objective measures by which we judge good or bad, then we must use those objective measures in judging an action of God. If "Obedience = good, disobedience = bad" and God does not abide by the rules given to us to obey, the ones by which we determine the goodness or badness of an action, then we should be able to judge that God has done wrong. When you ask if "God be in opposition to His own Will?" you presume that His will must coincide with the rules He gave us to obey. But, God is certainly "able" to violate the rules He has given us, correct? Nobody gave those rules to Him, did they? So why would it be impossible to rationally judge an action of His to be wrong, were He under the same rules that we are?

And as I said before:

Quote:

On the other hand, if the rules of morality do not apply to God, then we cannot say that God is a moral being. We cannot say that He is good any more than we can say that He is bad. He just IS, and He does what He wants, and His actions are not subject to moral review. See?

I am not suggesting that we judge God, and someone even more powerful punishes Him; who would do the punishing? I am suggesting that God has the capacity to do wrong, and if we have the capacity to judge that what God has done is right, then we must have the capacity to judge that something, if anything, that God has done is wrong.

ZooMom · 10-04-2004, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

...and Truth?

No, Truth is not relative. Either something is, or it isn't.

The norm for Beauty, however, changes as fast as hairstyles and hemlines.

ten to the eleventh · 10-04-2004, 07:22 PM

Here's a tough one, then: Is beauty good?

Evoken · 10-04-2004, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

then it is true all statements are false including this one?

g'night

You can keep rewording it however you want.

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10-04-2004, 07:03 PM	#134
jdlongmire Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: American by birth, Southern by the grace of God! Posts: 2,657	Then it is true that nothing is true?

10-04-2004, 07:08 PM	#136
jdlongmire Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: American by birth, Southern by the grace of God! Posts: 2,657	then it is true all statements are false including this one? g'night

10-04-2004, 07:22 PM	#139
ten to the eleventh Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 1,682	Here's a tough one, then: Is beauty good?

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