Aravnah Ornan

Consider the following popular Christian cop-outs:

1. "G-d gave us free will so that we could choose good over evil."

2. "G-d has a mysterious plan that our puny human minds cannot hope to understand."

Do Christians honestly believe both of these things? Since G-d presumably gave us our puny human minds and could have given us better ones, that makes it sound as though G-d has given us free will without the means for exercising it in any meaningful way.

For example, we often hear that we cannot make a moral evaluation of G-d's supposed involvement, or lack thereof, in any events because we are incapable of understanding G-d's concepts of good or evil. But doesn't free will to choose good or evil presuppose just that understanding?

Or is all this just another example of believing two mutually contradictory principles, just to be able to pick the one that gives the desired result in any situation?

Jamie_L

I like the fact that God supposedly values, above all else, our free will, yet he wants, more than anything else, for us to obey him.

If he really valued the free will itself, he'd revel in our using it. If he really wants obedience, he wouldn't be so keen on this free will thing.

He wants us to be able to do what we want, but he doesn't want us to actually do what we want. What kind of screwball plan is that?

Jamie

Barcode

Hullo

Whilst I find such a defense full of holes ... I can see why a believer might consider themselves not up to the task of understanding what God exactly is, or what he desires.

Which makes me wonder, how they can understand God's plan at other times? For instance, a Christian receiving a promotion may claim it is part of God's plan; but if the same Christian is struck down by a severe illness -- will he/she still claim the same thing?

Does God's plan include everything in the Universe that has happened and will happen? I would presume so, if God is the creator and has the ultimate authority.

And if God has a plan laid out for us according to each choice we will make -- then are we not just pawns on a gigantic chessboard (the Universe)?

God as an omniscient creator, must know some of his creations are going to hell -- yet doesn't do anything about it because he values free will so much.

It just baffles me, and only becomes explicable once I understand people created God and not the other way around.

And who says we're incapable of understanding? My girlfriend often says things like this, and personally, I think she's extroardinarily intelligent and capable of figuring out the answers to some of the bigger questions on her own.

Yet for one reason or another, she says she accepts things she doesn't understand.

If I believed, I must assume that God would desire me to ask questions since he created me to be a thinking, self aware human being.

Well, who would like to admit that if God is powerful and loving, he could prevent things, but chooses not too ... enter the free will concept.

A big problem I have ... how do the same people explain away natural disasters? No doubt, some religious people are probably claiming it's a " miracle " that Hurricane Isabel "only " killed 14 people.

There are many things I desire to do, but cannot in this world ... is that an example of God interfering with my free will?

And, if God created us in his own image according to the Bible, I must conclude that I'm capable of understanding events and whatever yellowbrick road he will choose to lead me down.

Biff the unclean

I've been through the bible from stem to stern-the Catholic bible with all those "extra" books at that. Nowhere in it do I see God valueing free will. In fact man's of gaining free will appears to be the original sin

excreationist

What God really wants is us to genuinely love him.
e.g.
Luke 10:27a - "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind"

(See also Deuteronomy 6:5, 10:12, 11:13, 13:3, 30:6, Joshua 22:5, Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30)

He wants us to *choose* to love him. He doesn't want to have everyone hardwired to love him, like little robots. In our earthly life we are tested to see whether we'll choose to love him. The rejects get thrown into the fire.

Biff the unclean

Do you think that anyone on trial ever used the Free Will defense?

"I told her, your honor, 'your money or your life.' She chose for me to shoot her out of her own free will. I didn't hardwire her like a little robot to give me her money."

Would a Christian jury let this defendant off?

Jamie_L

Why? What is it that he gains by our love? What quality of our love changes by virtue of our chosing it versus being "hardwired" to love?

Jamie

Barcode

And, what do we gain by loving God? If there was a huge difference, you would expect Christian's to exhibit markedly different behaviour .... surely? Although that's another topic I think ...

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by excreationist
What God really wants is us to genuinely love him.

He sounds miserably needy, like something out of Women Who Love Too Much.

excreationist

Jamie_L:
He feels loved and important.

Let's say puppies automatically "love" people... that they love anyone. (Even though that may not be accurate)
That means that they just fall in love with everyone... their love isn't that special, like the love that a person might have for YOU and you only.
It is like how God said to love him with ALL your heart, mind, soul and strength. Remember that he is a jealous God and his name is Jealous. (Exodus 34:14)
I guess he could make people love him the most, rather than be like a puppy who loves everyone... but it means people are loving God because they're made to... not because they've gone through the process of loving God for exactly who he is... so a hardwired love isn't as special and personalized...

Barcode:
Not just loving God, but loving God with ALL your heart, and ALL your mind, and ALL your soul, and ALL your strength...
Anyway, you'd gain a ticket to Heaven so that you can be with the one you totally love forever, and avoid being thrown in the fires of hell (which were prepared for the devil and his angels [Matt 25]).

Well if they are genuinely loving God with all their strength, etc, then their life would be TOTALLY centered around God and they'd probably be acting quite differently to other people. If they're not, then they obviously don't love God with ALL their heart, mind, soul and strength and I guess they'd go to hell.