PoodleLovinPessimist

Sigh... Looks like yet another "science is a cult because scientists don't examine my pet ideas" thread.

:banghead: :snooze: :down:

Capn_Danger

That's true, if we reason backward far enough, all arguments rest on something that can't be proven rationally. I do have faith in my senses, and my ability to reason: my senses give me consistent information- they appear to work, so I assume that they actually do. That's really all I have to go on; it's either that, or I assume that I cannot comprehend reality, and not be able to function.

Beyond that, I have faith in nothing: I need reasons to believe. All those reasons do rest upon that basic premise: that I am able to understand to some degree. We usually just take this for granted (we have to, if we want to get anywhere).

I think the biggest part of our discussion is just over semantics. Any idea can be modified from it's original meaning. But, if you modify buddhism, or science, to make it cult-like (according to your definition), it is no longer buddhism (not that Siddhartha's ideas actually had any real evidence for them) or science, as we orignially defined them.

mirage

Really. Give me one testable physical prediction of this amazing body of theory then.

Show us some testable knowledge from meditation then.

No "they" haven't. I have nothing against meditation per se, but it has never revealed scientific knowledge.

They did not develop any theory of relativity. Testable predictions if you disagree. Anyone can waffle on about how reality is an illusion. Very few can produce accurate predictions.

I'm aware of oriental contributions to mathematics and early knowledge in general, however, they did not produce anything to remotely resembling a scientific theory of relativity or evolution. To suggest that they actually produced theories far in advance of them is laughable.

Duck!

I see. So you can predict planetary orbits using these advanced concepts of space and time? Can you quantify exactly how light bends in a gravitational field? Does it predict mass energy equivalence? The constant speed of light? Is E=mc^2 there somewhere?

I bet as this argument continue, we will hear a lot of very vague and unclear talk about the "advanced" Hindu ideas about space, time, relativity, etc. without a clear attempt to explain how relativity was a Hindu/Jainist/whatever idea.

I bet that some Hindus, Muslims and Christans will lay claim to string theory if it's ever solidly proven as a scientific theory. "You see, we knew that all along!" It's amazing how they lay claim to advanced scientific ideas after they're discovered by someone else.

:huh:


Duck!

Dharma

again, "meditation is subjective" is an incorrect statement...what attainments in meditation have you attained that you can say this.?..that's like someone saying physics ain't so hot after taking high school physics...in other words, by what authority do YOU claim that meditation is subjective?

As for your contention that eastern thought has had no influence on modern western science, I'm now going to make you eat your words...most of the theories of relativity and time and space came from German scientists who pretty much mastered sanskrit and they admitted it, they simply put a formula for brilliant Hindu/buddhist/jain ideas, unllike haughty ignoramus' such as yourself..
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"We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to

count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been

made" - Einstein.



This one is from Heisenberg.

After the conversations about Indian philosophy, some of the ideas of Quantum Physics that had seemed so crazy suddenly made much more sense.

W. Heisenberg (German Physicist, 1901-1976)

When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous. - Albert Einstein

Access to the Vedas is the greatest privilege this century may claim over all previous centuries
- Julius Robert Oppenheimer
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It is quite funny that you ask for documentation for something, that the eastern practitioners have quite clearly defined using mantric formulas and told you to practice...You are telling me that a scientist who can define surfing, but can't surf, but defines it with physics, etc, is superior to the surfer, who can surf and can teach others without needing any book...a surfer would say, well practice...you'll see how to use the force...the surfer and the scientist both know something...the surfer's body knows something that the scientist who doesn't surf still doesn't know...a surfing scientist of course is superior...

Dharma

It is curious that people like Schroedinger, Niels Bohr, Oppenheimer and John Wheeler are Upanishad scholars, Oppenheiimer also read the Bhagwad Gita in the original sanskrit...

To ask meditators about documentation on whether or not they can quantify how light bends in a gravitational field is lke asking a surfer over the internet on how he dares think he knows more about surfing than a scientist who doesn't surf but can tell you the Physics behind surfing through documentary evidence....a surfer probably has greater internal knowledge of forces than a scientist...a scientist who's a surfer, now that's even better...

Dharma

testable? can a scientist reproduce a yogi who can stop his heart beat and breathing for unlimited periods of time or explain how it is done?...these yogis and their abiliities have been documented, now when scientists provide a definitive cure for the common cold, then perhaps science would be deemed of some worth greater than Yoga. In other words, yogis (hindu, buddhist, taoist) have demonstrated greater knowledge of the human body and the forces that reside within it, that cannot be compared currently with the findings of scientists, many of whom I have documented have quite eagerly been influenced by the ideas produced by these eastern yogis...

I am not saying science is useless, it is a useful way of observation and knowing bookish knowledge..if that's all you are after...

BDS

In addition, Yogis have devised ways of stealing picnic baskets and tormenting rangers that scientists never even dreamed of. Or was that Boo Boo?

Narapoia

Could we have a source for those quotes please.

I am not ignorant to the power of meditation to make the body do things that seem imposible. The physical feats you mention above, while impressive, are not proof that yogis have also discovered evolution, space time or relativity.

The mind has great power over the body, just look at the placebo effect. The idea of mind-body dualism has been incredibly retarding to some areas of western medicine. However, there are still physical limits the body cannot endure. Those yogis might be able to stop their hearts, but not indefinately or they will die, same with breathing.

You have also been asked by a number of posters to outline exactly how the theories of space time and relativity were described by the ancient hindu etc. I am asking as well. There are many christians who claim their holy texts describe these theories, when they point out how it is usually laughable. Please, proove that this case is different.

Danhalen

it is not possible for science to become a cult. it is possible that observations made by science are treated with such reverence and awe, that the observations can spawn cults.

for example; the scientific method was used to discover the principles which make up M-theory. M-theory can explain how some things might work.<==this is science

if i take M-theory to be truth, and i revere the equations and physicists involved with it, i get to start the cult of M-theory.<==this is not science

i do not understand why you feel that observing the mechanics of the naturalistic world could be cultish.