Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-06-2008, 09:16 PM

For the record, there are no eyewitness reports of either Biblical miracles or of Jesus. I'm not saying that means Jesus didn't exist (I'm still marginally on the HJ side of that debate), but the evidence for his existence is not as good as it is for Socrates.

Also for the record, anecdotes are not evidence. "My uncle Sam got kidnapped by aliens" is not evidence for aliens. No matter how credible you may think a witness is, the possibility of mistake, dishonesty and hallucination are always far more likely than magic. There has never been a single verified instance of any supernatural or "miraculous" event in the history of the universe.

WTF · 07-07-2008, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

There has never been a single verified instance of any supernatural or "miraculous" event in the history of the universe.

How else do you account for the existence of Jessica Alba, huh?

dr lazer blast · 07-07-2008, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

Regardless of whether or not its catholics, it is still a miracle. It doesn't matter whether or not it is maryology or not. Its still a miracle, as well as the other link I posted.

Of course it matters. It means the Catholics are right and the Protestants wrong (not to mention the Jews, Muslims and all other religions who do not accept either transubstantiation or Maryology as valid beliefs). This is pretty earth-shattering news actually.

Are you serious? please don't be ignorant. Regardless of who the miracle is being preformed for, it is still a miracle. You aren't seeing the evidence, you are just looking outside of it.

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-07-2008, 09:00 AM

What evidence?

French Prometheus · 07-07-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus_fr

Do you believe that the splitting of the moon by Prophet Muhammad was a miracle?
What about the milk miracle of the Hindu god Ganesh?
Or Buddhist miracles?

Why are there similar miraculous claims in other religions? Does God reveal himself equally to pagan Greeks praying to Asclepios, Christians praying to Jesus, Muslims praying to Allah, Hindus praying to Ganesh, Western children writing to Santa Claus, etc?

I don't believe there are any reliable witnesses to Muhammed's moon split.

I (and the vast majority of non-Christians) don't believe there's any reliable witness to Jesus' miracles, let alone his resurrection.

Quote:

I also doubt many of the other miracles, however, Satan has been given power and demons do bring supernatural events to pass at his command.

The only thing that makes you believe that the miracles of your particular religious brand are true is your faith. And, as an outside observer of the various religions, I can tell you that your faith is not particularly impressive compared to that of others.

A number of Muslims have so much faith in their religion that they're ready to die for it. We can see that almost everyday.

Quote:

Just as you have to stick your head in the sand to not believe in miracles by the true God, you have to stick your head in the sand to not believe in miracles done by Satan and his minions.

That cuts both ways. Keep in mind that those who believe in other religions are as sure as you are that they picked the right one. You don't believe in Muslim or Hindu miracles just as they don't believe in yours. And, again, from an outside POV, your miracles don't look more convincing than theirs.

Incidentally, The Bible warns of false prophets doing magic tricks and trying to lead believers astray...like Jesus did. According to Deuteronomy, Jesus is an obvious example of a false prophet.

Assuming that God exists, you most probably bet on the wrong horse, damning your soul to eternal torment in the process. I hope you chose your religion carefully and not just kept the one your parents indoctrinated you into as a child.

Selsaral · 07-07-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

No, as I said, I have eyewitness reports from men who are not liars, nor gullible. You are just ignorant when you make that accusation.

You don't know they were not liars or not gullible. But even if they weren't, they could still be completely wrong.

I can provide a list thousands of entries long of human beings being utterly convinced of supernatural phenomena who turned out to be wrong. This is so pervasive it's fair to say that human beings innnately invent false supernatural phenomena to believe in.

We're talking about an actual cosmic being here and you're offering the same evidence that astrologers, ufo nuts and lochness monster hunters present.

aChristian · 07-07-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

We have many people who are recognized as being sober and honest who have recorded them occurring in the past and in the present day. Try looking at the Jesus Film website or Gospel for Asia's website as a starter. The pastor of a church I attend has witnessed them. You can say he was fooled or is lying, but I know him well enough to know that you are wrong. Miracles don't happen frequently, but there are so many documented cases that you have to stick your head in the sand in order to deny them.

This is completely incorrect. There are sober an honest people who have reported miracles, ghosts, fairies, UFO's, and other nonexistant phenomenon. There are no critical, skeptical observers who have reported miracles.

Every time a skeptic investigates an alleged miracle, it turns out to be something other than a miracle - often a mistake, confusion, or pious fraud.

Honest self deception is always a problem in science, so scientists have developed procedures to rule this out in normal testing - double blind studies, etc. In addition, there are groups of professional skeptics who specialize in debunking claims of supernatural events.

The Amazing Randi issued his million dollar challenge to any anyone who could prove a supernatural event. Many people have tried to claim the prize, but they are unable to get past a screening committee that looks for obvious mistakes. The real fraudsters do not bother applying.

All educated people agree on this. The evidence is overwhelming. If you are going to claim that miracles happen, based on third hand accounts from missionaries in third world countries, we really have no basis for discussion.

If you really want to claim that miracles happen in violation of the laws of nature (not just psychosomatic healing), please spend the time to learn about basic scientific investigations and skepticism, so you know what you are up against.

The best that educated Christians can do is claim that the Resurrection was a unique miraculous event that God performed once in history.

You are speaking from ignorance and I'll bet you didn't go to the websites I mentioned to check out some evidence that contradicts your claims.

aChristian · 07-07-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selsaral

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

No, as I said, I have eyewitness reports from men who are not liars, nor gullible. You are just ignorant when you make that accusation.

You don't know they were not liars or not gullible. But even if they weren't, they could still be completely wrong.

I can provide a list thousands of entries long of human beings being utterly convinced of supernatural phenomena who turned out to be wrong. This is so pervasive it's fair to say that human beings innnately invent false supernatural phenomena to believe in.

We're talking about an actual cosmic being here and you're offering the same evidence that astrologers, ufo nuts and lochness monster hunters present.

No, in one case, a boy's fingertip was restored after a doctor had to amputate it. It is in some medical records book that I don't know the name of. However, there is no way a mistake was made. Either it happen the way the pastor told it or the pastor was lying. It is not plausible that he was lying. He has too long a track record of honesty for that. I am sure the same is true of many of the other miracles that can be investigated by starting at the websites I mentioned. You will need to contact them since they are not 'miracle websites'. I am sure that they can provide information on the miracles mentioned in some of the stories.

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-07-2008, 06:06 PM

It is always more plausible that someone is lying than that magic has occurred.

aa5874 · 07-07-2008, 06:34 PM

I have stated before and will do it again. The NT does NOT contain a RESURRECTION scene. No-one saw Jesus come to life in the NT.

Jesus was crucified, according to the NT

Jesus died, according to the NT.

Jesus was buried, according to the NT.

The disciples, Mary Magdalene and the other Marys never saw his body in the tomb when they visited the grave, early on the Sunday morning, according to the NT.

The body of Jesus is actually MISSING, but the authors claim he is RISEN.

07-07-2008, 06:34 PM	#40
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	I have stated before and will do it again. The NT does NOT contain a RESURRECTION scene. No-one saw Jesus come to life in the NT. Jesus was crucified, according to the NT Jesus died, according to the NT. Jesus was buried, according to the NT. The disciples, Mary Magdalene and the other Marys never saw his body in the tomb when they visited the grave, early on the Sunday morning, according to the NT. The body of Jesus is actually MISSING, but the authors claim he is RISEN.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-06-2008, 09:16 PM	#31
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	For the record, there are no eyewitness reports of either Biblical miracles or of Jesus. I'm not saying that means Jesus didn't exist (I'm still marginally on the HJ side of that debate), but the evidence for his existence is not as good as it is for Socrates. Also for the record, anecdotes are not evidence. "My uncle Sam got kidnapped by aliens" is not evidence for aliens. No matter how credible you may think a witness is, the possibility of mistake, dishonesty and hallucination are always far more likely than magic. There has never been a single verified instance of any supernatural or "miraculous" event in the history of the universe.

07-07-2008, 09:00 AM	#34
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	What evidence?

07-07-2008, 06:06 PM	#39
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	It is always more plausible that someone is lying than that magic has occurred.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.