Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rhutchin · 11-10-2005, 12:22 PM

Quote:

rhutchin
God is responsible for hell existing in the sense that hell cannot exist unless heaven exists, and God has set aside one area for heaven and one area for hell.

post tenebras lux
And god is responsible for whatever happens in hell, just as he is responsible for whatever happens in heaven. They are both part of his domain.

The responsibility that you ascribe to God for those things that happen in hell presuppose an obligation by God to do something about what happens in hell. That obligation is to make hell less hell and more heaven. I don’t see that obligation nor any responsibility by God for that which then happens in hell.

Quote:

rhutchin
Being blinded by the god of this world can entail many things. Use an atheist as an example. Many in this forum have a fairly decent knowledge of the Bible and salvation. The reaction of such atheists to the Bible and salvation would be that which we would expect from one who has been blinded. Such atheists seem to understand their situation (as described by the Bible). They see the ticket offered to them but reject it. If you tell an atheist that his inability to respond positively to the gospel is a consequence of his being blinded by the god of this world, he laughs. Look at it from your perspective (given that you are an atheist).

post tenebras lux
Does an atheist, who is not amongst the elect, have any option of accepting an offered ticket? Does he have the choice of getting a ticket and thus going to heaven or not?

Does the atheist have the option/choice? Yes.

Does the Atheist have the desire? No.

rhutchin · 11-10-2005, 12:30 PM

Quote:

rhutchin
No. I think they are correct. People go to hell because of that which they do and not that which God does to them (so, God does not set people on fire.).

John A. Broussard
What in the world did god create a hell with eternal flames in it unless your god intended to have people burn there?

Are you saying that your god didn't realize that some people would end up in the eternal flames of his doing?

Can your god possibly be that naive?

Please explain.

God’s intent may have merely been to make hell for those angels who had sinned. However, if you also want to go to hell and God knows that you want to go there, is God obligated to intervene and prevent you from making a bad decision? Is it naive for God to allow somewhat like you to make decisions where you do not seem capable of making good decisions?

Jimmy Higgins · 11-10-2005, 12:33 PM

rhutchin... where's the love? You forgot to reply to my message.

I know you are getting tagged team'd, but I'd like to play too. So when you have the time... :thumbs:

rhutchin · 11-10-2005, 12:34 PM

Quote:

rhutchin
I think it is pretty well recognized that translations of the Scriptures are not inspired and that they is no perfect translation.

Translations differ.

John A. Broussard
So which translation is correct.

The Catholic Church says their translation makes Catholicism the True Church.

Protestants say that just is not so.

How do you know which is the "correct" translation?

Thank you.

I think the Catholic Church takes the position that its “interpretation�? of the Scriptures makes Catholicism the True Church. I don’t think Catholic/Protestant differences are issues of translation but of interpretation

rhutchin · 11-10-2005, 12:43 PM

Quote:

rhutchin
I am not sure how you mean that God suspends a person’s free will in the above cases. Pharaoh was free to act consistent with his desires (although God could have restricted Pharaoh’s actions). Sorta like putting a dog in a fenced yard. The dog is free to do anything it wants within the yard but cannot do anything outside the yard. As an example, you are free to pretty much do anything you want as limited by your physical and fiscal abilities.

John A. Broussard
So Pharaoh was completely free to have his heart hardened by god.

Does that make sense to you?

Yes. Pharaoh’s heart was naturally inclined to hardness as a consequence of his selfish desires. To prevent Pharaoh’s heart from hardening required that God intervene to soften Pharaoh’s heart. God, therefore, could choose to harden Pharaoh’s heart simply by refusing to intervene to prevent it from hardening.

It is sorta like the position in which you find yourself. You are headed for hell unless God intervenes to prevent you from making a bad decision. If God does nothing, then we could conclude that God sent you to hell. This is because God knows what you are doing and He has the power to prevent that outcome. However, since God is not under any obligation to save you, He is not responsible for what happens to you.

pharoah · 11-10-2005, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

God’s intent may have merely been to make hell for those angels who had sinned. However, if you also want to go to hell and God knows that you want to go there, is God obligated to intervene and prevent you from making a bad decision? Is it naive for God to allow somewhat like you to make decisions where you do not seem capable of making good decisions?

Let's say that you see someone swallow a whole bottle of pills in suicidal despair. Clearly they want to die. Are you obligated to seek medical aid for that person to prevent them from carrying out their wish? Maybe not, but if you had a shred of moral decency you would, even if that person was your worst enemy.

John A. Broussard · 11-10-2005, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

I think the Catholic Church takes the position that its “interpretation�? of the Scriptures makes Catholicism the True Church. I don’t think Catholic/Protestant differences are issues of translation but of interpretation

What?

How can you say that?

They even have a different number of books in their bibles.

Please explain.

Thank you.

rhutchin · 11-10-2005, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

How can you be sure that you are a member of the True Church, and living the life of a True Christian, it you don't know ancient greek and hebrew 'like a native' and there are no perfect translations?

Your god certainly seems to like to maker things hard for you, Rhutchin. Well, except for the fact that you're either on the list of the elect (since before time began) or you're not on it, of course. That bit's easy.

Like Paul said--

2 Timothy 2
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I don't think the study required is that onerous.

rhutchin · 11-10-2005, 12:59 PM

Quote:

rhutchin
I think it is pretty well recognized that translations of the Scriptures are not inspired and that they is no perfect translation.

Translations differ. For example--

Genesis 2
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The Torah has: "...you shall be doomed to die."
Knox has: "...thy doom is death."
Spurrel has: "...dying thou shalt die."
The Septuagint has": "...by death you shall die."

Jack the Bodiless
It is rather easy to see what's going on here, from the general context of the tale.

1. God describes only one consequence of eating the fruit: death.

2. The Serpent says that this consequence is false, and presents another: knowledge.

3. A&E eat the fruit, and gain knowledge.

...So the Serpent was correct.

Furthermore, the reason for A&E's mortality is also explained, but by an entirely separate event: their failure to eat from the OTHER tree. God acted specifically to prevent A&E becoming immortal.

This is also similar to the Sumerian version of this tale, in which the god Enki lies to the mortal Adapa about the allegedly lethal effects of eating the "food of the gods" (which would have made Adapa immortal, except that Adapa believed Enki's lie and didn't eat it). There is still a "toxic lie" here.

When you say "the translation is difficult", I think the problem here is that translations which support Judeo-Christian apologetics are difficult to wrest from the Hebrew. Strong's Concordance simply has a repetition of the Hebrew muwth (death or kill). It looks like "you will be killed dead", and dual-emphasis does occur in Hebrew. Hence the KJV's "surely die".

You have pointed out something interesting. There were two outcomes from eating the fruit. The first outcome was knowledge. The second outcome was death. The serpent was correct but he left out the second result. Sorta like there being two consequences to robbing a bank. The first outcome is that you get lots of money. The second outcome is that you go to jail.

A/E’s mortality was tied to their obedience to God. Had A/E not sinned, they would have lived forever. It was only after they sinned and began to die that they needed the tree of life to maintain their immortality.

As you point out, String’s concordance only requires that A/E die.

John A. Broussard · 11-10-2005, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Yes. Pharaoh’s heart was naturally inclined to hardness as a consequence of his selfish desires. To prevent Pharaoh’s heart from hardening required that God intervene to soften Pharaoh’s heart. God, therefore, could choose to harden Pharaoh’s heart simply by refusing to intervene to prevent it from hardening.

Got it. A new interpretation of the verses.

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I [am] the LORD. And they did so.

According to you god didn't harden Pharaoh's heart, as it was clearly stated by the divinely inspired writer, god just prevented it from softening.

Now, why in the world didn't god come right out and say that god didn't soften Pharaoh's heart?

Please explain

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-10-2005, 12:33 PM	#133
Jimmy Higgins Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Proud Citizen of Freedonia Posts: 42,473	rhutchin... where's the love? You forgot to reply to my message. I know you are getting tagged team'd, but I'd like to play too. So when you have the time... :thumbs:

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.