Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NoeL · 10-30-2009, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Hilarious video about Moses breaking the tablets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE7tT...layer_embedded

Sorry, but GakuseiDon posted that video back at post #7.

Julio · 10-30-2009, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoeL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Hilarious video about Moses breaking the tablets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE7tT...layer_embedded

Sorry, but GakuseiDon posted that video back at post #7.

Oh, crossed wires, sorry.

semiopen · 10-30-2009, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

Is it admissible that only the higher hierarchy could read and write? That is, Moses and some few more?

This is a serious issue in a conservative assessment of when the bible was written.

The Hebrew language probably didn't exist until the 11th century BCE, and even here it was basically the same as Caananite. For example the

Gezer_calendar is the oldest known Hebrew (or Phoenician) and is inscribed on clay tablets.

Bring this up to a knowledgeable conservative and they will give you a nice smile and say that is not an issue. They seem so smart, I'd be inclined to believe them but it seems to be an issue to me.

Assuming Moses is a real figure and educated as an Egyptian prince, he might have been able to write in hieroglyphics or something but it's difficult to believe that he could in Hebrew.

The vast scholarly consensus is that nothing was written until the 11th century BCE and there aren't many scholars who think any verses date from before the 9th century BCE.

semiopen · 10-30-2009, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph2ter

King Jeroboam and calf episode in Exodus parallels each other. Jeroboam had also been in exile in Egypt and came out and established calf worship (1 Kings 11:40:Solomon tried to kill Jeroboam, but Jeroboam fled to Egypt, to Shishak the king, and stayed there until Solomon's death.)

Preferance of the Levite priesthood in Exodus 32 is also obvious, because king Jeroboam expelled the Levite priesthood from the northern kingdom:

2 Chronicles 11:13.17: The priests and Levites from all their districts throughout Israel sided with him. The Levites even abandoned their pasture lands and property, and came to Judah and Jerusalem because Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them as priests of the Lord. And he appointed his own priests for the high places and for the goat and calf idols he had made. Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to the Lord, the God of their fathers. They strengthened the kingdom of Judah and supported Rehoboam son of Solomon three years, walking in the ways of David and Solomon during this time.

It is somehow complicated to explain the two calves. Why the two of them?
2 Kings 16-17:
They forsook all the commands of the Lord their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal. They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire.
One was in Bethel and the other in Dan. Writer mentions an Aserah pole in conjunction with the calves in Bethel and Dan. This forms some kind of tripartite structure of shrines. Two for the male deities, and one for a goddess Asherah. Sacrifice in the fire is mentioned as the most important cult.

Quote:

Julio:
Is it admissible that only the higher hierarchy could read and write? That is, Moses and some few more?

Someone could then think that Yhwh wrote with his own finger the Egyptian hieroglyphs on the tablets.

A striking feature of the two stories is the line

Quote:

These are your God(s) O Israel

appears in both stories. The plural Gods in Kings is clear because of the two calfs but in Exodus it is obscure.

Translators appear evenly divided if elokhekha means your God or your Gods, in Exodus 32.8 probably because this is a grammatical operation on Elohim.

Just a note on Iskander's interesting and knowledgeable comments. The actual meaning of these or any verses is expounded much later in history. It seems clear that the original writers and readers would have a totally different interpretation.

semiopen · 10-30-2009, 06:47 AM

Regarding the two calves, these were in separate temples.

Friedman in "Who Wrote the Bible" mentions that in order to eat the animals, they had to be ritually slaughtered on an altar.

It would have been a royal (no pun intended) pain in the ass to schlep a cow to Jerusalem and take the meat back every time you wanted a hamburger. Especially if you lived a hundred miles away. The high places and other temples made this somewhat practical. It was only much later that worship was centralized in Jerusalem and the high places destroyed.

There are some obscure lines in Deuteronomy that discuss slaughtering if one can not get to a suitable slaughtering point.

John Kesler · 10-30-2009, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Exodus 32:17

Keen judgement from the general of the Hebrew army.

Personally, I think the story has to be read with

Kings 12:28...

Quote:

Upon which the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said to them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt.

The Exodus calf story is pretty clearly written after this.

Scholars James L. Kugel and Richard Elliott Friedman, and undoubtedly many others, mention additional points of contact between the two calf makers, Aaron and Jeroboam:

Aaron had sons named Nadab and Abihu, who died untimely deaths (Leviticus 10:1-2). Jeroboam had sons named Nadab and Abijah--"essentially the same names," according to Kugel--who also died untimely deaths (1 Kings 14:1-17; 1 Kings 15:25-28).

Julio · 11-01-2009, 10:19 PM

At another forum [where I posted the same topic] a participant observed that Jehovah being the creator of the universe and all that, had to use his finger to carve his commandments on a plate of clay!
I find this a strong argument to discredit the entire theatrics of this Moses and his Jehovah idol!
What do you think about it?

Iskander · 11-02-2009, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

At another forum [where I posted the same topic] a participant observed that Jehovah being the creator of the universe and all that, had to use his finger to carve his commandments on a plate of clay!
I find this a strong argument to discredit the entire theatrics of this Moses and his Jehovah idol!
What do you think about it?

Had to use his finger to carve his commandments? It is a euphemism it was his prick he used to write on the hard rock

semiopen · 11-02-2009, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

At another forum [where I posted the same topic] a participant observed that Jehovah being the creator of the universe and all that, had to use his finger to carve his commandments on a plate of clay!
I find this a strong argument to discredit the entire theatrics of this Moses and his Jehovah idol!
What do you think about it?

Had to use his finger to carve his commandments? It is a euphemism it was his prick he used to write on the hard rock

Maybe his tongue.

Actually any description of God with human attributes is meant metaphorically, such as God said, walked, remembered, etc.

Curious that he didn't carve the second set also, there is some debate about whether the ark or tablets existed. Maybe this suggests that there were tablets in the ark.

Julio · 11-02-2009, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Had to use his finger to carve his commandments? It is a euphemism it was his prick he used to write on the hard rock

Maybe his tongue.

Actually any description of God with human attributes is meant metaphorically, such as God said, walked, remembered, etc.

Curious that he didn't carve the second set also, there is some debate about whether the ark or tablets existed. Maybe this suggests that there were tablets in the ark.

Who on earth would be debating whether there were tablets or an ark?! Surely it is certain all that is superstitious folklore!
Or am I wrong?

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10-30-2009, 06:47 AM	#45
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	Regarding the two calves, these were in separate temples. Friedman in "Who Wrote the Bible" mentions that in order to eat the animals, they had to be ritually slaughtered on an altar. It would have been a royal (no pun intended) pain in the ass to schlep a cow to Jerusalem and take the meat back every time you wanted a hamburger. Especially if you lived a hundred miles away. The high places and other temples made this somewhat practical. It was only much later that worship was centralized in Jerusalem and the high places destroyed. There are some obscure lines in Deuteronomy that discuss slaughtering if one can not get to a suitable slaughtering point.

11-01-2009, 10:19 PM	#47
Julio Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 5,187	At another forum [where I posted the same topic] a participant observed that Jehovah being the creator of the universe and all that, had to use his finger to carve his commandments on a plate of clay! I find this a strong argument to discredit the entire theatrics of this Moses and his Jehovah idol! What do you think about it?

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