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11-13-2011, 10:43 AM | #111 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Chapter 5
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11-13-2011, 10:46 AM | #112 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Chapter 6! Finis
Amen. Now, maybe we will finally hear some commentary that does not include blind speculation that merely supports our romantic preconceived notions about Marcion. Maybe we can cast off the veil that covers our eyes, and ascent to the 3rd heaven and behold god! Naaaaaaaaah! DCH |
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11-13-2011, 11:17 AM | #113 |
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I will develop some comments later. I appreciate all the work and am working on a paper on this very subject. But you already know I think it is pointless to pretend that Tertullian and Epiphanius actually have the Apostolikon sitting in front of them as they wrote this stuff out. They are working from a text (probably a Greek translation of a Syriac original) that they received fourth or fifth hand (cf. Against Marcion 1:1) where polemic and original analysis (if there ever was any) ended up getting hopelessly intertwined together to the point that we simply can't tell when the original author (i.e. not Tertullian and not Epiphanius but their source) is witnessing a Marcionite reading. I am not so sure how accurate a reflection of the Apostolikon any of this is.
I just started a post on Schmid's and Clabeaux's analysis (did you know Clabeaux probably lives less than 30 minutes from you? He's from Columbus - just called him yesterday with a question). I think its stupid that Schmid should dismiss Adamantius because it's been used more than a whore in Tijuana but keeps Tertullian and Epiphanius as if they are somehow better. They're both corrupt witnesses. |
11-13-2011, 11:32 AM | #114 |
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For the table challenged among us ...
In case all that looking at 6 pages of tables is too much eyestrain, here is Galations in regular everyday sentences and paragraphs.
Actually makes a bit of sense, and I can see where Platonic/Gnostic ideas might be manifested here, but there are also other passages that don't seem to fit right. Marcionite Galatians per MaharDCH |
11-13-2011, 11:50 AM | #115 | |
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Stephen,
I throw it out for discussion, and I did use cautious language. Learning what someone was supposed to have believed and wrote, based only on often straw-man characterizations of their enemies, is always iffy. However, although dirt is rubbing off their picture of the Marcionite version of this letter, I am not quite ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater. A mother was bathin' her baby one nightDCH Quote:
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11-14-2011, 08:51 AM | #116 | |
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That gLuke is a redaction of Marcion is not any conclusion of mid-19th Century Rationalism, just Baur's. Tyson and Klinghardt want us to go back to the opinion in 1852 of one scholar who held to what all his fellows abandoned. That's the history of science; the old men cling to disproven views that the young men overturned. |
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11-19-2011, 10:22 PM | #117 |
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Joseph Tyson has many scholarly publications, I learned from the July 2008 review In Catholic Biblical Quarterly by David M. Scholer of his Marcion and LUke-Acts. However, his severely late dates are based solely on Knox and Pervo. Dieter Roth shot down Knox, so how good is Pervo?
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11-19-2011, 10:54 PM | #118 |
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DCH
For what it's worth I told Trobisch I am working on a paper to demolish the construction of his friend Ulrich Schmid. I told him my methodology and my line of attack. He sounded approving. I think he knows how much bullshit there is in all this. It doesn't make sense. Show me one line anywhere in Tertullian that says he has the Apostolikon. |
11-20-2011, 12:16 AM | #119 | |
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Richard Pervo has devoted his scholarly life to Acts. He dates it to about 110 CE, which is not a severely late date - I think other scholars have dated it to 150 CE or later. |
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11-20-2011, 01:41 AM | #120 |
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Aside from the hyperbole, I think this recent post at my blog is pretty important to help identify Irenaeus as Tertullian's source for Books Four and Five and most importantly that Irenaeus wasn't actually citing from the Marcionite Bible directly but - curiously - from what Irenaeus's says 'is the portion of the original scriptures' that Marcion retained
http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...ence-that.html |
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