stonewall1012

I think I understand.. correct me where I diverge from your position... The equinox and cross, ancient symbols in their own right, played an almost unobservable or unconsious role in the creation of what you are calling Paul's crucifixion theology. Interesting theory.. couple problems... do we have any ancient theologians appealing to this equinox sign as a proof of the resurrections veracity.

I'll be honest I struggle with accepting this due to the very blantant Jewish overtones of Pauls work... His use of rehetoric form mixed with midrash certainly make for an interesting combination but I don't see such a connection on the appearance.. Jewish belief by the 1 century had incorporated Greek philosphical ideals into their belief, Philo is an excellent example.. But recreating a new theology about God using such pagan inovations seem to me to be difficult to accept.

However, I will admit I don't know enough of ancient belief concerning the cross and equinox to speak too intelligently....

However, who ever wrote Acts seems to think that it was the resurrection of the dead that caused the Atheanians to "reject" Pauls message in Athens. So either Paul didn't make the connection clear enough or he didn't realize it was effecting him...

Like i said I'm trying to see how it flushes out in terms of working with what we have.

Let me ask you... do you see more Jewish influence upon Paul's theology, philosopical influences, rhetorical form or actual "pagan religious" influence? How do you see these working together in layers or linear?

Cesc

I guess in the context of your question, "what we have" is:
1. The traditions of the so-called Mysteries, or mystical traditions of the cultures of the Mediterranean.
2. The role of spring equinox through the ages.

Some knowledge of these two things is paramount to understand my theory here.

Its not so much that the equinox and the cross were ancient symbols "in their own right", but rather the absolutely profound role of spring equinox itself throughout the ages. Probably the single most celebrated day in the history of mankind. Why did the Jews revere the spring equinox?

I think we should be very careful as to what we designate "pagan" and "non-pagan" here. Most often there's a sharp line drawn between those two and personally I think that in some cases its due to the little knowledge most people hold with regards to the traditions of the so-called "Mysteries" (of which I'm no expert myself). Typically, behind pagan religions we find the true meanings, which are sometimes some astronomical spectacle, natural phenomena or other times various concepts. Aphrodite was a pagan goddess, but the concepts she represents are of course not pagan.

The concept of the sun or moon or heavenly light as a symbol of "intellectual enlightenment", generally a mystical concept not for the unititated, was ancient even at the time of the turn of the era. At which time I believe it was to be found incorporated within the teachings of inventious cults, schools of thought and philosophies of hitherto unprecedented complexity and synchretism. The whole period was unique for, among other things, mysticism. Who's to say that the anonymous Christian myth-makers didn't also use that concept in an allegorical way for the great light that is Jesus. Merely looking at the end-product, it seems to me more than likely that they did.

My idea being, that if one begins to study more the traditions and ideas of the mysteries, which were so widespread in the whole Mediterranean world, including the Jewish gnostic school of thought such as the followers of the 'Teacher of Righteousness', then one can perhaps begin to see the Johannine concept of God and Jesus being the "light" in a more true context? And, as I suggest, perhaps indeed one of the foundation stones of the basic Jesus narrative. One of the most important aspects of the Jesus character being the ultimate "enlightenment" teacher, the "Truth". But just because they might have portayed Jesus with any kind of astronomical allegory/metaphor, as I propose, it doesn't make it "pagan", only mystical.

Some of Paul's concepts, such as "dying" through the law and instead living on with Christ inside him ("Crucified with Christ", Gal 2:20), and the whole death/resurrection on the individual and personal level, seem to me not entirely removed from the individual death/resurrection concept of the mystery initiation rituals. Similar to the "exoteric" ritual of baptism, or 'rebirth' into a faith.



No "pagan" influence other than possibly mystical ideas. Doesn't Paul say he knew this guy who once was taken up to "the third heaven"? Is that Jewish or Greek? I can imagine, though, that Paul knew all about the writings of Philo and that much of his ideas about his Jesus is inspired by Philo's Logos. It also seems logical to me that there would be no Christianity as we know it if there hadn't been a Philo first, but I'm sure you've heard that argument before.

stonewall1012

Cesc, well thought out... you seem to have done some reading. The first half of your post seems to dabble in the idea of the spring equinox and the mystery religions as being the foundation of the death and dying mythos.

The second half of your post, I agree with more than the first.

However,I think your misunderstanding the exact nature of the ancient world. At least to my understanding. In todays world we have a strong sense that reality is known through the senses what we can see and feel, Aristotle's metaphysics.

In the ancient Roman world Plato held great metaphysical sway. People believed ideas and concepts were superior and of a higher order than the physical world. Hence why both Jewish, Christian, and Pagan religions were what we could call mystics. In the ancient Roman world the platonic metaphysic (which is what Philo bought and incorporated into Jewish philosophy) was bought nearly whole sale, hence 500 years later Augustine is considered a neo platonists it was still in effect.

This is why I don't view the rise of christianity as a blending of pagan rites combined with Jewish ideas. Jewish ideas combined with Platonic ideas... now that i buy. For one because of the absolute battle ground the Christian church became with gnosticism(blantant platonism)

In short I understand the mystery religions to be an off spring of that Platonic metaphysic with ancient pagan rites and understanding. In my view looking at the ancient roman world as reacting to seasonal changes only is to sell them way way short.

The Jews incorportated Platonic understand but they also reacted against it. Philo is a good example of Jewish thought combining with Plato. Others, what you might call more traditional, did not buy into it.

You have to truely understand the Maccabean revolt to begin to understand Jewish interaction with Platonism.

Cesc

Before I reply, could you clarify a little here, cuz I dont quite understand:

1. What do you mean with the "death and dying mythos"?
2. And "the first half" and "second half" of my post?

stonewall1012

By death and dying mythos i am refering to the death and resurrection of the Christ
The first half of your post seems to focus upon the spring equinox and "pagan rites" while the second half seems to focus more upon what you refered to as Jewish Gnostic schools of thought and their influence.

I know you view these as syncretic wholes and the ancient jewish rites might have appropriated these ancient rites but by the 1st century they were pretty much assimilated into Jewish thought. Meaning that they didn't have to appeal to outside sources they understood them within their own growing understanding of their God and his interaction.

Cesc

Perhaps I'm abit thick-headed here (high probablity), but I'm still not sure what the "first half" of my post is. Is it including the paragraph starting with "The concept of the sun ..." ?


Of course I agree when you talk about Platonism's impact on Jewish thought and understanding. But I dont really see how you mean that has a relevance to my post?

By "the traditions of the mysteries", I don't mean "the mystery religions" or "ancient pagan rites" or even "mystery cults".
I mean a way of writing and looking at stories in a particular manner. For example, the story of Samson's hair being a lunar allegory. And that a Jewish mystic of the 1st century could recognize that, instead of just seeing some silly story. And he might interpret that lunar allegory any way he want to, depending on what kind of Jew he is, but still recognize it as an astronomical allegory in the first place.

Do you know what I mean?

judge

Interesting, how might the story of samsons hair be a lunar allegory?

Cesc

When the lunar month was seen as 28 days, each week was of course 7 days. Or four times 7 phases of the moon. First he's tied up with 7 bowstrings and breaks them. Next he's tied up with "new" ropes, which he breaks. [Full moon]. Then his 7 locks of hair are tied together but he unties them. Finally his undone by the cutting off of his 7 locks. [Empty moon].
"Samson" probably means "of the sun", being a light hero similar to Hercules.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...ontext=chapter

stonewall1012

Alligorical understanding is profoundly impacting upon the belief system, that I will profoundly express. However, this gives the impression that they could say what ever they wanted and "make it fit" so to speak.

the Jewish mind, if you read about the "clash" between hellenism and the oriental perspecive, you will see that it left neither completly unchanged. However, Judaism was particularly resistant, (although not unchanged). It seemed to incorporate certain ideas like alligorical understanding (Philo again) but by the time of christ it had morphed enough that it was fairly resistant to "lower" forms of pagan rituals.
What I mean is that while they might have bought into a platonic metaphysic they stayed pretty resistant to pagan rituals.
The Sadducees, which by most accounts were largly hellenized, clung to worshiping God as executing the rituals of the Temple "cult".
This means that most scholars accept that Judaism was influenced profoundly by the Platonic alligorical world view however,they retained a type of ridged physicality to their faith (ie the ritual has meaning in the execution not in its symbolism).
Did the Jews find profound meaning in the equinox and the cross... possibly... but I highly doubt looking upon the Roman crosses in 70 A.D. they were thinking..."Hey that reminds me of the sun god and when to plant corn."
Once again I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying the Jews found profound meaning in the temple and executing the cult practices much more than they found meaning in some equinox cross. You can argue till you'r blue in the face that Samson is a reference to seasonal change but by the 1st Century it had been assumed into Jewish thought(ie non hellenistic ways of thinking).
I say all of this to say. Platonic influence?.... Yes I see it..... "pagan" equinox and cross worship?... I don't see it.

Cesc

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that the Samson story is infact a lunar allegory (fwiw, I believe I can argue well for it). Would that be a "pagan ritual"? I dont agree. Perhaps that particular manner of allegorical symbolism is a "pagan tradition", but I dont agree with that either. It also seems to me that you continuously speak of "the Jews", or "they", like they were all exactly the same, like there were no Jewish mystic groups of any kind at all. But obviously Christianity did not come out of mainstream Judaism, and certainly not out of the Temple cultus, we both know that.

I get the feeling that you know a hell of a lot about church history and all kinds of good stuff, but that you don't know much about what the equinox - or rather astronomy as a whole - has meant for the ancient religions as such, including Judaism, since you keep referring to "pagan rituals", which really has little, if anything, to do with it in this context of 1st century mysticism. And if you dont, then you wouldn't understand at all what I'm talking about, and thats fair enough.


Did you know that after ca. 1500 BC the bull gods of several cultures gradually changed into ram gods? Some substituting the sacrificial calf for the lamb. I think its well recognized that this is because the vernal equinoctial cross moved from Taurus the bull into Aries the ram around those centuries. That is, from about 1500 BC the spring equinoctial cross was now fixed in the constellation of Aries the ram for the next ca. 1500 years, and when the sun was on that ram cross at the end of March, it was time to sacrifice a lamb.

And with a quick allusion to my theory, I'd suggest that this is why the Jewish sacrificial lamb was apparantly roasted on a cross at spring equinox (J.Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho). And if thats the case, what in the world makes you think there were no Jews at all anywhere who didn't seize upon that symbolism?

I dont think either that "the Jews" were looking on the "Roman crosses" in 70 AD and said "that reminds me of the sun god and when to plant."
But what I'm saying is: I can easily imagine some fringe mystic cults, gentile or Jewish, around the turn of the era looking at an "enlightened" person's crucifixion taking place at spring equinox (or hearing a story about it) and thinking "that reminds me of the sun". They'd only have to know a tiny bit about astrology, and its almost a given. And then thinking this has some divine significance or something and getting all kinds of crazy mystical and theological meanings out of it.

Now, I'm not saying at all that I'm correct here with my proposition of course, its just suggestions for the sake of exploring. But how can you argue against my theory if you're not even aware of the astronomical traditions to which I allude. Thousands of years of important symbolic tradition, of which you're not even aware, cannot simply be waved off as "pagan ritual", dont you agree?
Unfortunately, we seem to be constantly miscommunicating because of this, I feel.