Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-22-2013, 07:50 AM

At Beth She'arim there is a priestly burial site. In Catacomb 1 Hall K there is a plaque to the top-right of its entrance stating that this was the family tomb of “Leontius, father of Rabbi Paregorius and Julianos the Palatinos.” [Schwabe and Lifshitz, Beth She‟arim II, 40-41 (no. 61)] According to Schwabe and Lifshitz, Beth She'arim II, 39, 41 the office of “palatinus” (an official of the imperial or state treasury) did not exist before the reforms of Diocletian, suggesting that this individual lived during the early fourth century. But the evidence seems to come from an earlier period

The title also exists in other texts http://books.google.com/books?id=D7k...nos%22&f=false

Chili · 02-22-2013, 08:14 AM

Yes, the dove is well known for it's 'homing instinct' and if Nazareth is home for Jews (your Peter only here who is the faith of the Jew), the dove will fly the coop again and just leave its droppings there to get the believer drunk on it.

stephan huller · 02-22-2013, 10:52 AM

The idea that members of the resistance movement during the war assumed animal names is clear with respect to Bar-Giora, Bar-Giyora = "lion man", п. of commander of the war effort.

stephan huller · 02-22-2013, 02:29 PM

The description of the bird on Gerizim sounds vaguely familiar to the gospel:

Quote:

For there was situated on that holy Mountain, Mount Gerizim Beth-El, a bird, like a dove, used for the performance of divination and sorcery by the Roman sorcerers.

Quote:

Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him."

But remember also that John is said to have been baptizing near Aenon (= Samaria).

stephan huller · 02-22-2013, 02:38 PM

Cohen concludes (rightly) that there was no actual dove worship on Gerizim http://books.google.com/books?id=iLg...20dove&f=false. Why then do the Samaritans attribute it to the Romans?

Chili · 02-22-2013, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The idea that members of the resistance movement during the war assumed animal names is clear with respect to Bar-Giora, Bar-Giyora = "lion man", п. of commander of the war effort.

It is true that the camel must be converted into a lion when the Tempest comes about, and for this all baggage must be shed and that includes the Torah and it's prohibithions in the narrows where the river is also the wildest or tempest would not be there.

Conversely the tempest is where the temple must fall and the empowerment of barjoni is to see to it that barabbas will be set free in the tradition that itself was his enemy to be understood and forever calm the waters in the celestial sea that caused this effort from the start. i.e. knowledge is and who am I to say?

It is based on this that his Holy Mother (we call her Mary today) was not banned from Eden so that he could see the occasional glimpse of this celestial see that created the 'argument' in his mind wherein the perplexion was his and not outside to him.

So your lines that I copied here is good to say that proto-Mark and the million said to be his followers as Valetinians with their defenders called Samaritans who did indeed upold the Law and defend the temple that born them into the clan are wrong . . . which proves the need for Constantine to adopt and enforce the Byzantine point of view you also presented here.

Here is you lines:

"Another Byzantine theologian - Euthymius Zigabenus - again 'mentions that some writers near the time of the apostles records that our Lord baptized His holy mother and Peter and Saint Peter baptized the other disciples (In Joan. Ev. iii.5).

Could it be that the gospel was about Jesus baptizing and emptying his spiritual essence into the chief of the baryoni in order to empower him to defend the Temple? Could Christianity be rooted in some secret rite practiced among the Jewish rebels at the time of the revolt? "

See the paradox in baptizing his Holy Mother who was in charge behind it all, and that is typical of the Christian point of view today, who see her as just another woman also in need for more, while the apostels understood when they looked in and say what this commotion was all about, to say that they were the cause of the battle that ensued and must be raised to be with him and be the mansion of his own.

stephan huller · 02-22-2013, 08:44 PM

Another example of the baryona/bar yonah blurring of distinctions is the famous 'Elisha of wings' story:

Quote:

For R. Jannai said: Tefillin demand a pure body, like Elisha-the-man-of-the-wings. What does this mean? — Abaye said: That one must not pass wind while wearing them; Raba said: That one must not sleep in them. And why is he called 'the man-of-the-wings'? Because the wicked State once proclaimed a decree against Israel that whoever donned tefillin should have his brains pierced through; yet Elisha put them on and went out into the streets. A quaestor saw him: he fled before him, and the latter gave pursuit. As he overtook him, he [Elisha] removed them from his head and held them in his hand, 'What is that in your hand?' he demanded, 'The wings of a dove,' was his reply. He stretched out his hand and the wings of a dove were found therein. Hence he is called 'Elisha-the-man-of-the-wings.' And why did he tell him the wings of a dove rather than that of other birds? Because the Congregation of Israel is likened to a dove, as it is said, as the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her pinions with yellow gold: just as a dove is protected by its wings, so with the Israelites, their precepts protect them [Shabbath 49a]

Quote:

It was taught, R. Simeon b. Eleazar said: Every precept for which Israel submitted to death at the time of the royal decree, e.g., idolatry and circumcision,24 is still held firmly in their minds. Whereas every precept for which Israel did not submit to death at the time of the royal decree, e.g., tefillin, is still weak in their hands.25 For R. Jannai said: Tefillin demand a pure body, like Elisha-the-man-of-the-wings. What does this mean? — Abaye said: That one must not pass wind while wearing them; Raba said: That one must not sleep in them. And why is he called 'the man-of-the-wings'? Because the wicked State once proclaimed a decree against Israel that whoever donned tefillin should have his brains pierced through; yet Elisha put them on and went out into the streets. A quaestor saw him: he fled before him, and the latter gave pursuit. As he overtook him, he [Elisha] removed them from his head and held them in his hand, 'What is that in your hand?' he demanded, 'The wings of a dove,' was his reply. He stretched out his hand and the wings of a dove were found therein. Hence he is called 'Elisha-the-man-of-the-wings.' And why did he tell him the wings of a dove rather than that of other birds? Because the Congregation of Israel is likened to a dove, as it is said, as the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her pinions with yellow gold:26 just as a dove is protected by its wings, so with the Israelites, their precepts protect them. [Shabbath 130a]

It would seem that the setting is conflict with Rome. There are a great number of references to the ideas that the revolutionaries of the Bar Kochba revolt did not wear tefillin and so - the story goes - the Israelites lost the war. The idea that the Romans forbade their use but some Jews managed to grow dove wings implies to me at least that there may have been some linkage between the yonah or bar yonah and the baryoni (revolutionaries).

stephan huller · 02-22-2013, 09:07 PM

See also the related concept of Elijah 'man of wings' - Midrash Tehillim 8:7: "The bird of heaven (Psalms 8:9) — this is Elijah, who flies through the world as a bird." In Targum, Ecclesiastes 10:20, and Mayan Hokhmah (Beit ha-Midrash, 1:60) Elijah is identified as "Master of Wings."

stephan huller · 02-22-2013, 09:10 PM

The phrase 'man of wings' or 'master of wings' come from Ecclesiastes 10:20;

Quote:

Curse not the king no not in thy thought and curse not the rich in thy bedchamber for a bird of the air shall carry the voice and that which hath wings (וּבַ֥עַל הַכְּנָפַיִם) shall tell the matter

Also Proverbs 1:17 cited twice by Clement of Alexandria:

Quote:

But the law given to us enjoins us to shun what are in reality bad things -- adultery, uncleanness, paederasty, ignorance, wickedness, soul-disease, death (not that which severs the soul from the body, but that which severs the soul from truth). For these are vices in reality, and the workings that proceed from them are dreadful and terrible. "For not unjustly," say the divine oracles, "are the nets spread for birds; for they who are accomplices in blood treasure up evils to themselves." [Strom 2.34]

Quote:

They cling uncontrollably to pleasure. They persuade their neighbors to hedonism. The miserable wretches listen to these words from Scripture: "Throw your lot in with us. Let us all have a common purse and a single bag for money." It is because of them that the same prophet gives us advice in these words: "Do not travel on the road with them; keep your steps clear of the paths they tread. It is not unjust for nets to be spread out for birds. By sharing in bloodshed they are laying up evils for themselves" – that is to say, they are eager in pursuing immorality and are teaching their neighbors to do the same. [Strom 3.105 - 106]

stephan huller · 02-22-2013, 09:23 PM

The figure of ba'al kenafayim is also a chief angel, perhaps Metatron. For the various angels in rabbinic literature see Reuven Margoliot, Malakhei Elyon [Hebrew] (Jerusalem: Mossad Harav Kook, 1988), passim. It means "winged creature" but now in modern Hebrew means "fighter plane." It is also interesting that Aquila's translation of Ecclesiastes 10:20 "lord of wings" resembles the title of Metatron the most in the Jewish mystical literature = Marei de-Gadpei http://books.google.com/books?id=mvw...ngs%22&f=false

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02-22-2013, 07:50 AM	#41
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	At Beth She'arim there is a priestly burial site. In Catacomb 1 Hall K there is a plaque to the top-right of its entrance stating that this was the family tomb of “Leontius, father of Rabbi Paregorius and Julianos the Palatinos.” [Schwabe and Lifshitz, Beth She‟arim II, 40-41 (no. 61)] According to Schwabe and Lifshitz, Beth She'arim II, 39, 41 the office of “palatinus” (an official of the imperial or state treasury) did not exist before the reforms of Diocletian, suggesting that this individual lived during the early fourth century. But the evidence seems to come from an earlier period The title also exists in other texts http://books.google.com/books?id=D7k...nos%22&f=false

02-22-2013, 08:14 AM	#42
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Yes, the dove is well known for it's 'homing instinct' and if Nazareth is home for Jews (your Peter only here who is the faith of the Jew), the dove will fly the coop again and just leave its droppings there to get the believer drunk on it.

02-22-2013, 10:52 AM	#43
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The idea that members of the resistance movement during the war assumed animal names is clear with respect to Bar-Giora, Bar-Giyora = "lion man", п. of commander of the war effort.

02-22-2013, 02:38 PM	#45
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Cohen concludes (rightly) that there was no actual dove worship on Gerizim http://books.google.com/books?id=iLg...20dove&f=false. Why then do the Samaritans attribute it to the Romans?

02-22-2013, 09:07 PM	#48
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	See also the related concept of Elijah 'man of wings' - Midrash Tehillim 8:7: "The bird of heaven (Psalms 8:9) — this is Elijah, who flies through the world as a bird." In Targum, Ecclesiastes 10:20, and Mayan Hokhmah (Beit ha-Midrash, 1:60) Elijah is identified as "Master of Wings."

02-22-2013, 09:23 PM	#50
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The figure of ba'al kenafayim is also a chief angel, perhaps Metatron. For the various angels in rabbinic literature see Reuven Margoliot, Malakhei Elyon [Hebrew] (Jerusalem: Mossad Harav Kook, 1988), passim. It means "winged creature" but now in modern Hebrew means "fighter plane." It is also interesting that Aquila's translation of Ecclesiastes 10:20 "lord of wings" resembles the title of Metatron the most in the Jewish mystical literature = Marei de-Gadpei http://books.google.com/books?id=mvw...ngs%22&f=false

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