Mr Average

No need for hints, I understand fully.

Yes, that is my understanding as well

My definition of Atheism thus far is supported by the dictionaries, as are contrary definitions. Atheism means different things to different people.

Wayne Delia

The denial or disbelief in gods.
Did you see that mentioned?

It was mentioned in three of the four definitions you provided.

The "or" term in the definition implies it's effective if either of the alternatives are satisfied. "A or B" is true if either A is true or B is true or both are true. Obviously, this particular definition of atheism is rarely fulfilled by someone who satisfies condition A only: I can't think of anyone who denies that any gods exist, yet nevertheless believes in one or more gods. But there are strong atheists who assert that no gods exist (condition A) along with disbelieving in gods (condition B), and all of atheism is defined by condition B.

You're giving a strong impression that you are. For example, I have corrected you on your use of a capital A in the term atheism, pointing out that it's unnecessary. Even after being corrected a minimum of four times, you wrote the following:

It's a shame that you've offered that sentiment toward "final clarity," because you're verifying that you're unable to understand (or are intentionally misunderstanding) that the term "atheism", according to atheists, does not employ a capital "A" to start the word.

I was about to guess about a quarter (25%), but Tuvar Ane Ingolnen pointed out a previous straw poll showing it's more like 15%. In any case, if you wanted to hang your hat on the incomplete dictionary definition of atheism as only being a denial of any gods, you might have expected to see it closer to 100% than 15%.

You're not "selling" anything in the sense of attracting potential converts, of course, but anyone who posts as anything other than a troll is "selling" others on their credibility. You did not appear to be joking when you asserted that atheists follow a "creed" of denial of gods only. When asked to provide a reference to this "creed", you pointed to a bigoted, stereotyped, demonstrably incorrect web site - written by a fundamentalist Christian apologist. That's what causes people to generalize and stereotype you as someone not interested in serious discussion.

That's a shame, especially (as noted above) there's no longer any reason to assume you've got anything meaningful to contribute other than very weak jokes at the expense of atheists - jokes which turned out to be not very funny at all.

That's a false dichotomy. It's not an "either/or" alternative of taking things seriously or caring for a family. A person could do either, both, or neither.

I know exactly what you mean - you tried to make a joke, it fell flat on its face, and it's "sour grapes" time. I'm sure you understand that this board is essentially a discussion forum, where people's reputations are established entirely by what they write and how they present it. You didn't do so well, and you're asserting here that anything you're posting isn't necessarily serious. That's fine, but don't be upset when few, if anyone, actually take you seriously. And it's obviously a mistake to say "Well, I can be serious, or I can take care of my family" - that's a false dichotomy.

If that lack of concern was legitimate, you wouldn't even have bothered to make this post to which I'm responding.

The damage has already been done, though - in other threads on the discussion board, you could be just as easily dismissed for potentially not being serious.

You're repeating two mistakes which you've already been corrected on. I've already mentioned your habit of capitalizing a word which does not require capitalization. Second, neither atheism nor any form of theism is contingent on behavior, but rather on whether a particular belief is held. If a belief in one or more gods is held, then the person holding that belief is a theist. Otherwise, the person is an atheist. It's a fairly well-defined distinction that has nothing to do with behavior.

WMD

Wayne Delia

I'm curious as to why the definition you posted was labelled "b", as if it was the second definition. Was there an alternative definition labelled "a"? What did that have to say? Also, among the four definitions you proposed, you seem to be clinging to the definition of "atheism" that is incomplete - according to actual atheists.

Or maybe this is one of those times you're not being serious. Ha ha.

WMD

Wayne Delia

As well, we understand where you're coming from.

Then why did you intentionally leave out the alternative definitions, which align better with how we characterize ourselves?

Let X = "disbelief in gods" and let Y = "denial of gods." In three of the four dictionaries, the definition of atheism is "X or Y". The fourth one, Cambridge, says it's "Y" only. It's easy to show that's incomplete, since a particular variation of "theism" would have to be applied to someone who simply does not believe in any gods, yet who does not assert or necessarily believe it's a fact that no gods exist. Yet you're putting forth great effort to claim dictionary support for "Therefore, atheism is defined as Y," despite being corrected by actual atheists.

WMD

Mr Average

Whilst I understand that it might not be necessary, this does not mean that I have to type it that way, or does it? For as long as I can remember, I have typed it that way. No agenda or specific reason, it's just something I do. You are taking me to task because I choose to capitalise a letter in the word 'Atheism' and you do not like it? Well...sorry, but that is how I will continue to type it unless I change my mind or am instructed to by a moderator.

I am not intentionally misunderstanding at all, I just type the word the way i like to.

Is that how you see it? Posting on IIDB is a credibility sale?

As I have already said a few times, I did not mean to offend, I wa just trying to lighten a thread which got quite dark very quickly.

You decide on the basis of this thread, that I have nothing to contribute which is meaningful. So be it, your choice. Do you not think though that this is a little strong?

This is what I said...For me, discussing things on a forum is a chance to have my views tested, my flaws exposed and a place to socialise in a virtual kind of fashion. I do not take things too seriously on here or any other forum, because no matter what happens on this forum I still need to feed my children and pay the bills.

I did not say it was an either/or, I did not allude to it being an either/or, I have never suggested it was an either/or....I merely said that in my worldview, nothing that happens on this forum is of great significance to me, when compared to my real flesh and blood loved ones.

It's not so much sour grapes, just a certain sense of wonder at the incredible amount of time and effort being expended here on both sides, over something so trivial. I keep wanting to walk away from this thread, then I have a cup of coffee, get a caffeine rush and decide to reply...just one more time

Whilst you may have great cooncern with reputations on a forum, I do not.

I stand by what I say.

If Wayne Delia the person does not take me seriously, I will not lose a second's sleep. If every member of this forum decided that I was a joke, the sleep loss would increase by 0%. maybe that's not the case for you, and I respect that.

Read what you wrote again. Now look in my post to see where I said that? Never said it.

Mr Average

When I quoted the four dictionaries originally, I pasted everything in all four. You/Sven picked up on the disbelief issue immediately, but ignored point b. I thus posted point b for clarity and to ask for opinions on that.

On the one hand...

You say that Atheism is not a religion and has no creed.

On the other hand...

You take me to task for capitalising the A, and spend some considerable time precisely explaining to me what Atheism is and what is isn't.

I don't know....it just amuses me.....

Sven

While this is true, this does not make your understanding correct - as I explained:

Since "I don't believe in god" isn't a doctrine in any way, it follows logically that "atheism = doctrine that there is no god" (and similar formulations) does not cover all there is to atheism - and thus there's no universal doctrine of atheism.

For some reason, you chose to snip this from my post - although it contained the central message. Since it's exactly this central message you still don't get (or want to get?) I have to wonder if you really snipped it only accidently.

Sven

So, let's see. Go to a discussion board of a hunters club and continue to claim that hunters are like environmental activists because both wear shoes. After you got corrected several times, including for you writing "hanting" instead of "hunting" although you got correct several times, and including your claim that members of hunting clubs all wear pink socks (which you base on a bad dictionary entry), you can close with:

On the one hand...

You say that a hunting club is not environmental activism and that its members don't wear pink socks.

On the other hand...

You take me to task for writing hanting, and spend some considerable time precisely explaining to me what hunting clubs are and what they are not.

I don't know....it just amuses me.....

After you did this, please come back and tell us how many people there still take you seriously.

Mr Average

Yes...

Wayne claims that Atheism has no creed....when I suggested that it appeared to. Then he spends a fair amount if time correcting my captilisation of the main word itself, and spends a while correcting me on what Atheism actually is according to the majority of it's adherents.

I did not spell Atheism wrong, I simply capitalised it. Can you see how amazingly pedantic that appears, when he claims that Atheists are not this or not that? He is concerned about how I type the word out....

If I were to do the same at a hunting club, they would agree that their creed is that hunting is a good thing, a worthwhile thing, something that they can enjoy. I would expect them to have these views as a majority mindset, and thus would not be shocked if they told me them.


Let's try this for your consideration....

Atheists regularly are as fundemental in putting forth their position, as the fundementalists they dislike?

Not saying it is a religion, just offering something else..

Sven

My experience is that sloppiness in thinking correlates very well with sloppiness in writing. He apparently thinks the same.

[snip rest which entirely ignored my point]

If you replace "regularly" by "sometimes", I doubt you would find many who disagree (OK, this of course depends on what you mean exactly by "fundamental").