Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Huon · 08-08-2007, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I beg your pardon, khalimirov, but you will not find many people here who take the idea that Christianity was invented from scratch in the 4th century seriously.

If the thesis of mountainman is exact, then the battle of the Milvian Bridge in 312 was really a miracle and one of the best possible proofs of the existence of the Christian god ! (:devil3: )

darstec · 08-08-2007, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by darstec

Actually Iraeneus does NOT quote from any of those gospels. Several months ago on alt.atheism I went into detail into every one of those supposed quotes and for the most part they were single verses with the most quoted consisted of three words, the majority of the rest only had one word in common with the verses it supposedly quoted.

It is dishonesty in its most flagrant variety for any scholar to claim Irenaeus quoted from any scripture. It is even worse when they pretend those quotes come from anywhere near the second century CE.

And I fail to see the reason ANYONE would use Wikipedia for any information considering how any Johnny/Jenny Lunchbucket can add or delete information, no matter how little his/her expertise (or bias) in the subject matter.

So where did Irenaeus get his information from? If its dishonest to claim Irenaeus quoted from the Gospels, it is even worse for you not to show where he quoted from.

These are some of the quotes in book 2 of Against Heresies by Irenaeus that matches the KJV Gospels.

book 2.22.6, ..."Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it, and was glad, And they answered him, Thou art not yet fifty years old and thou hast seen Abraham?"
John 8:56-57, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and thou hast seen Abraham?"

bk2.24.4..'He suffered no man to go in save Peter and James, and the father and mother of the maiden."
Luke 8.51, And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in save Peter and James and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden".

bk 2.26.2.."Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one them falls to the ground without the will of the Father".
Matthew 10.29, Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father".

If these quotes are not from the Gospels, then where did they come ?

I disremembered. My post was not about Irenaeus and not in alt.atheism. It was about the standard "Ignatius quoted from the gospels", not about Irenaeus. Further the post was in talk.origins and not in alt.atheism.

I'll have to check out Irenaeus. Where do we get the Irenaeus quotes from? Perhaps something written by Eusebius? The copies (Against Heresies) we do have were written only in Latin and date most probably to the fifth century. But is that the actual date of those manuscripts or do they like much of what we have date from after the 11th century (HINT: the Armenian version is from the second half of the 13th century)? We really have no idea what Irenaeus might have actually written. Plenty of time to insert those quotes back into the New Testament.

To answer the question

Quote:

If these quotes are not from the Gospels, then where did they come ?

I would say they either originated from Irenaeus himself or from others who edited his writings any time after the fifth through thirteenth centuries. Remember Irenaeus was the first to mention the names of the four gospels which did not occur prior to 194 CE and perhaps later.

darstec · 08-08-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by darstec

Actually Iraeneus does NOT quote from any of those gospels. Several months ago on alt.atheism I went into detail into every one of those supposed quotes and for the most part they were single verses with the most quoted consisted of three words, the majority of the rest only had one word in common with the verses it supposedly quoted.

After wading through the detail of Irenaeus in such a manner
did you arrive at any conclusions or observations about this
particular pre-nicene literary profile? I'd be interested to know.

Best wishes,

Pete

I was wrong. My post was about Ignatius and was in talk.origins.

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