Originally Posted by sunspark

Kurt Cobain suffered and that was the cause of his suicide, not from reaching some supposed "plateau

Originally Posted by sunspark

Thank you, you summarised your post and attitude in making it very well.
"they had it coming"

Originally Posted by EthnAlln

I got this from a computer scientist's website at Colorado State. It isn't a work of scholarship, of course, but it looks reasonable to me. It gives a very clear picture of what Jainism is about and its history. If you e-mail the author, you might even get exact references. It is quite clear that most of the doctrines of Jainism are firmly in the Hindu tradition, and that they converge with Buddhist and traditional Hindu doctrines. The dating of Mahavira is also not something I've ever heard any doubt about (and I have read a few Jaina sources on my own in connection with Hindu mathematics). It is simply grotesque to claim that the resemblances to Christian doctrine embedded in the fundamental principles of Jainism are the result of Christian influence. Can anyone imagine Mahavira laying down four basic principles for his followers, which were followed as the absolute truth for many centuries, and then suddenly those same followers inserting a fifth great pillar of the faith? I don't see it.

Here's what I copied:

"In many cases, the historians do not accept a tradition until supporting evidence becomes available. For example, the Kalpa-Sutra gives a list of ancient orders (Ganas etc.) Many historians were not convinced of the historicity of this information until the excavations at Mathura un-earthed many inscriptions mentioning the very same orders. Several archaeological discoveries and studies of the Buddhist and Vedic/Puranic literature has confirmed the antiquity of the jain tradition. I will gradually add additional items and links to detailed information. The outline below will serve as an index.

Lord Mahavir was the twenty-fourth and the last Tirthankara of the Jain religion. According to Jain philosophy, all Tirthankaras were born as human beings but they have attained a state of perfection or enlightenment through meditation and self realization. They are the Gods of Jains. Tirthankaras are also known as Arihants or Jinas.

Tirthankara - One who establishes the four fold order (Monk, Nun, Layman, and Laywoman) of religion.

Arihant - One who destroys his inner enemies like anger, greed, passion, ego, etc.

Jina - One who conquers his inner enemies like anger, greed, passion, ego, etc. The followers of Jina are known as Jains.

Mahavir was born in 599 B.C. as a prince in Bihar, India. At the age of 30, he left his family and royal household, gave up his worldly possessions, including clothing and become a monk.

He spent the next twelve years in deep silence and meditation to conquer his desires and feelings. He went without food for long periods. He carefully
avoided harming or annoying other living beings including animals, birds, and plants.

His ways of meditation, days of austerities, and mode of behavior furnish a beautiful example for monks and nuns in religious life. His spiritual pursuit lasted for twelve years. At the end he realized perfect perception, knowledge, power, and bliss. This realization is known as keval-jnana.

He spent the next thirty years travelling on bare feet around India preaching to the people the eternal truth he realized. He attracted people from all walks of life, rich and poor, kings and commoners, men and women, princes and priests, touchables and untouchables.

He organized his followers, into a four fold order, namely monk (Sadhu), nun (Sadhvi), layman (Shravak), and laywoman (Shravika). Later on they are known as Jains.

The ultimate objective of his teaching is how one can attain the total freedom from the cycle of birth, life, pain, misery, and death, and achieve the permanent blissful state of one's self. This is also known as liberation, Nirvana, absolute freedom, or Moksha.

He explained that from eternity, every living being (soul) is in bondage of karmic atoms, that are accumulated by its own good or bad deeds. Under the influence of karma, the soul is habituated to seek pleasures in materialistic belongings and possessions. Which are the deep rooted causes of self-centered violent thoughts, deeds, anger, hatred, greed, and such other vices. These result in accumulating more karma.

He preached that right faith (samyak-darshana), right knowledge (samyak-jnana), and right conduct (samyak-charitra) together will help attain the liberation of one's self.

At the heart of right conduct for Jains lie the five great vows:

Nonviolence (Ahimsa) - not to cause harm to any living beings

Truthfulness (Satya) - to speak the harmless truth only

Non-stealing (Asteya) - not to take anything not properly given

Chastity (Brahmacharya) - not to indulge in sensual pleasure

Non-possession/Non-attachment (Aparigraha) - complete detachment from people, places, and material things.

Jains hold these vows at the center of their lives. The monks and nuns follow these vows strictly and totally, while the common people try to follow the vows as far as their life styles will permit.

At the age of 72 (527 B.C.), Lord Mahavir died and his purified soul left the
body and achieved complete liberation. He became a Siddha, a pure consciousness, a liberated soul, living for ever in a state of complete bliss. On the night of his salvation, people celebrated the Festival of Lights (Dipavali) in his honor. "


But if anybody is not convinced, I'll dig deeper.

Originally Posted by Wads4

"Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar
What are you accusing The man from Galilee of, to claim that he is the most genocidal tyrant in history?"

Look what he did to that innocent fig tree and those poor swines; but seriously, he set the standard for Christian intolerance ever since by his threats of hell fire and damnation to anyone who would not listen to him. Before him, the Jews merely slaughtered each other mostly ( if you don't count all the previous indigenous Canaanites. It took Christians to declare war on the whole world, and set an example to later Islamists.

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

My statement that you quoted above related ONLY to the whining participants in this thread.

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

You arrived late in this thread, If you care to look back over the previous post, it will be evident that the post you quoted from me above, was in response to one of your fellow atheists stating that humanitarian assistance to the "suffer1ing" (a term invented by him), was in his opinion, as worthless and ineffective as "pissing into the wind".