Cege

Isn't there still disagreement about where the pool of Bethesda/Bethzatha is located? The pool under the church of St. Anne or the pools beneath the convent of the Sisters of Zion? Doesn't the description given by Eusebius differ from the description found in GJohn?

Johnny Skeptic

http://www.geocities.com/questioningpage/When.html

Merle Hertzler

I conclude that the most probable date for the original writing of the gospels is sometime after 70 AD. This late date gives us good reason to question their historicity.

Referenced sources:

1. Hertzler, Merle Are the Gospel Accounts Historical?, 2002

2. Hertzler, Merle Is the Bible Inspired?, 2002

3. Slick, Matthew J. When were the gospels written and by whom?, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003

4. Doherty, Earl The Evolution of Jesus of Nazareth

5. Carrier, Richard The Formation of the New Testament Canon, 2000

6. Wallace, Daniel The Synoptic Problem, 2003

7. I use the traditional name for the author, "Mark." Nobody knows what his name really was.

8. Helms, Randel Who wrote the Gospels? (Altadenal, Ca.: Millenium Press, 1997) p. 9

9. Smith, Mark Matthew 24:34 & Genea: What The Scholars Say, 2000

10. See Preterism.info

11. Helms, Randel Who wrote the Gospels? (Altadenal, Ca.: Millenium Press, 1997) p. 10

12. Mack, Burton L. Who Wrote the New Testament? (San Francisco; HarperCollins Publishers, 1989) p. 158

13. Kirby, Peter Acts of the Apostles, 2001-2004

14. Carrier, Richard Luke and Josephus, 2000

aa5874

Your statement maybe invalid. The description of the Pool of Bethesda, or any other pool, cannot determine whether the gospel of John was written before or after 70 CE.


If I now describe to you my grandfathers' house, in great detail, which has been demolished over 20 years ago, would that mean I described it to you twenty years ago. Of course not.

You have to get independent and known reliable sources, external to biblical sources, to place these unknown writers in the 1st century and before 70 CE.

Steven Avery

The statement that the accuracy of the desription (combined with the present tense writing) 'lends credibility' to John being a first-century witness is absolutely 100% valid.

Instead you argue against it being absolute proof.
With that I agree, it is not absolute proof.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Johnny, you simply gave us a bibliography that -

Contains four references that do not argue for a post 70 AD. NT

3. Slick, Matthew J. When were the gospels written and by whom?,
6. Wallace, Daniel The Synoptic Problem, 2003
9. Smith, Mark Matthew 24:34 & Genea: What The Scholars Say, 2000
10. See Preterism.info

Two that are the author referencing himself.
1. Hertzler, Merle Are the Gospel Accounts Historical?, 2002
2. Hertzler, Merle Is the Bible Inspired?, 2002

One that is not even a reference per se.
7. I use the traditional name for the author, "Mark."
Nobody knows what his name really was.

One that simply says that is possible that Acts predated the Gospels.
13. Kirby, Peter

One secular very liberal NT scholar
12. Mack, Burton L.

And a few that are the unusual gang of skeptic/mythicist/infidel suspects.
4. Doherty,
5 & 14 Carrier, Richard
8. & 11 Helms, Randel

Quite a mixture, not telling us much.
And we are well aware that many folks have a later date view.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

yalla

Interesting factoid I read in John Romer's 'Testament (or via: amazon.co.uk)" [ABC books 1988]recently.
Relates to "John's" story of the cripple who couldn't get into the pool to be cured. But JC healed him.
According to Romer: [p.167]There was, too, an Aesclepium, a sanctuary for the sick, and one prestigious enough to appear some of Jerusalem's coins, where it is pictured as a classical temple. It was situated at the Sheep Pools....
Now he doesn't give any more details but I did find the comment interesting as it seems to be some sort of parallel to "John's" story in Ch.5.
I haven't tried to find out more about it yet, anyone know anything?