Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Joan of Bark · 08-14-2009, 08:36 PM

Quote:

the 1996 nominee for the Pulitzer Prize depicts soldiers who truly believed their military service under God would cover over a multitude of sins—namely all that murdering and marauding required of them in the tumultuous Middle Ages.

Of course this is true; the pope encouraged a lot of the carnage with promises for the remission of sins. Another reason why a belief in Catholic theology is harmful to humanity.

IamJoseph · 08-15-2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

I am surprised to see Richard Carrier use the term "scientists" for ancient philosophers.

Archimedes, Pythagroas, Ptolemy are figures in the history
of science, which for many people has a far greater import
than the history of any other human discipline, including the
history of christian apologetics.

Quote:

The term was only invented in the 19th century, I believe, and so is dreadfully anachronistic.

An erroneous belief: the term "physics"
is derived from the greek "physis" which
as everyone knows means "nature".

The study of nature is science.

While some are familiar with history of christian apologetics,
others such as Carrier are familiar with the history of science.
This is not in the least surprising.

Science = HOW; History = WHEN; Geography = WHERE; Math = WHAT; Religion = WHICH.

All of the above come equally under THE LAW with no exceptions. The HOW is not greater than the WHEN or WHERE but fully intergrated with it and cannot subsist by itself.

The WHY is yet missing - which is not to say there isn't one.

IamJoseph · 08-15-2009, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Of course this is true; the pope encouraged a lot of the carnage with promises for the remission of sins. Another reason why a belief in Catholic theology is harmful to humanity.

And christians are yet silent of a Pope who is to be beaitified for ordering Jews should not be allowed to return to their homeland when the Nazis came to power - but better to holocaust them in Europe - what a brave Pope! ROMAN CATHOLICISM is all in the name of love and the truth will set you free.

Joan of Bark · 08-15-2009, 07:36 PM

Hey Joseph, have you ever posted on Catholic Answers forum? You could have quite a debate with them over there!

Turdus merula · 08-16-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Did the crusades get a bum rap?

Quote:

These days, Christians are not so quick to call the Crusades the golden age of Christendom, but a millennium later, their memory still reverberates.

Even so, Rodney Stark, 75, a professor of social sciences at Baylor University, says the crusaders were not all that bad, and certainly not barbaric, greedy warmongers.

In his new book “God’s Battalions: The Case for the Crusades (or via: amazon.co.uk),” the 1996 nominee for the Pulitzer Prize depicts soldiers who truly believed their military service under God would cover over a multitude of sins—namely all that murdering and marauding required of them in the tumultuous Middle Ages.

“I get tired of people apologizing for the Crusades, like Christians were a bunch of dirty looters that went over there and killed everybody,” Stark said. “It just wasn’t true.”

Oh, I see - they weren't simply dirty looters, they were dirty looter who believed they were doing God's work. Of course, that changes everything. Hurrah for the crusaders!

Lógos Sokratikós · 08-16-2009, 12:49 PM

I agree that medieval religion-laden philosophy helped lead to modern science. But to make that into an argument that without Christianity there would be no modern science, is like saying that since Christain piety motivated the building of the cathedrals, without religion architecture would die out.

There were good seeds in Christianity for certain developments of modern culture. Great. Round of applause. So?

Without Greek polytheism would we not have democracy?

Post hoc arguments are weak.

avi · 08-16-2009, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lógos Sokratikós

But to make that into an argument that without Christianity there would be no modern science, is like saying that since Christain piety motivated the building of the cathedrals, without religion architecture would die out.

Agree.
Here are three other examples:

Chinese firecrackers are ultimately responsible for Hiroshima....

South American curare laden darts expelled from a long tube led to Sadam Hussein's use of chemical warfare against the Kurds...

17th Century British military genius revealed itself by deliberately spreading smallpox germs in the blankets given to Chief Pontiac's five nations, to destroy, completely, the opposition to British expansion in Michigan, and that action was ultimately responsible for adoptive immunotherapy, and cloning.

lpetrich · 08-16-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

One problem with pagan astronomy was the habit of considering heavenly bodies as gods. Christians rejected this, on religious grounds, which therefore tended to sift out a whole lot of junk right there and then.

What pagan astronomy? Anaxagoras had been noted for his godless, materialistic theories about the nature of the Sun and the Moon, and more generally, most pagan philosophers were not the sort of Hellenic-pagan literalists that you seem to imagine that they were.

Quote:

Christianity was more rationalistic than paganism, which by itself made certain progress possible.

Medieval philosophers often claimed angels pushed the planets around, which is much the same thing, so that argument fails there also.

Roger Pearse, you make it seem that medieval theologians were celebrating Lucretius's On the Nature of Things as the best description that they could find of what God had chosen to create.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lógos Sokratikós

I agree that medieval religion-laden philosophy helped lead to modern science.

Later medieval philosophy had a lot of borrowing from rediscovered pagan philosophers like Aristotle, and modern science has much more connection with the borrowed parts than what one might consider "core" Xian theology.

Quote:

... Without Greek polytheism would we not have democracy?

LOL.

More seriously, it's rather hard to derive democracy from Hellenic paganism. Rule by a committee of oligarchs, maybe.

Vinnie · 08-17-2009, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Hey Joseph, have you ever posted on Catholic Answers forum? You could have quite a debate with them over there!

Its far easier to bash catholicism when not in the presence of bona fide catholic scholars.....even the protestants do it.

Vinnie

Celsus · 08-17-2009, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Have a read of James Hannam's book "God's philosophers" which discusses how medieval thinkers thought about what they were doing. He talks a bit about this argument.

James Hannam is our very own Bede. Make what you will of that

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08-15-2009, 07:36 PM	#24
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Hey Joseph, have you ever posted on Catholic Answers forum? You could have quite a debate with them over there!

08-16-2009, 12:49 PM	#26
Lógos Sokratikós Contributor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Virtually right here where you are Posts: 11,138	I agree that medieval religion-laden philosophy helped lead to modern science. But to make that into an argument that without Christianity there would be no modern science, is like saying that since Christain piety motivated the building of the cathedrals, without religion architecture would die out. There were good seeds in Christianity for certain developments of modern culture. Great. Round of applause. So? Without Greek polytheism would we not have democracy? Post hoc arguments are weak.

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