Minimalist

Oh, my. The fanatics will be so disappointed.


Then again...that seems to be their lot in life.

avi

Absolutely brilliant. Marvelous post.

S&H's reply above earns my vote for one of the top ten posts for 2010. Just sensational. Thank you.

Toto, you need to send an email to the British, with Minimalist's and spamandham's excellent research, before the BBC broadcasts their nonsensical interpretation.....Thanks again, Clive, what a great thread!

avi

steve_bnk

If you want an idea of what an historcl JC may have loked like, he would have likley been a short wiry person looking like an ethnic Jew of today. He wanderd the desert, traveled by foot, and started out as a carpenter(ie construction worker).

No clear white skin, no amorphous soft lined body, blond hair, and blue eyes.

Toto

I have no particular pull with the Brits. Perhaps Clive could email? Or anyone reading this thread?

Minimalist

Clivedurdle

Done - awaiting response. And I have linked this thread - it is viewable by non members isn't it?

mountainman

According to this page entitled Constantine – Pagan Thug Makes Christian Emperor, the Chi Rho symbol appears on coins issued by Ptolemy III Euergetes ("Benefactor") 246-221 BC.



Between the legs of the eagle ....



Eusebius tells us quite plainly that ....

“[Constantine] was matched by none in grace and beauty of form, or in tallness,
and so surpassing his contemporaries in personal strength
that he struck terror into them.”

Its no wonder that Diocletian retired to grow cabbages shortly after c.305 CE. It is perfectly understandable that Constantine was an extremely influential and fascist warlord. What is difficult for the academics to understand is that Constantine was also a gangster - a robber and brigand (ie: pirate on land). Constantine gets my vote for the person who commissioned the fabrication of the Historia Augusta, the "Historia Ecclesiastica" and the New Testament.

“Where you have a concentration of power in a few hands,
all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control.
History has proven that. All power corrupts;
Absolute power corrupts absolutely”

[Lord Acton]

andrewcriddle

WHC Frend The Archaeology of Early Christianity p 351, notes that the features of the mosaic figure seem borrowed from an an imperial portrait, although images of Constans or Constantius (sons of Constantine) are the suggested source rather than Constantine himself. (The mosaic is probably a little after Constantine's death.)

On the other hand the tunic and pallium of the figure are hard to reconcile with an imperial portrait and the depicted pomegranates seem to represent eternal life or immortality.

There may be 2 issues. It may be appropriate to say that this syncretistic mosaic represent either an emperor depicted as a Christ figure or Christ depicted as am imperial figure and it is difficult to determine which. However, it seems highly likely that there is at least some Christian influence, ie this mosaic was designed for someone who knew about and approved of the Constantinian project of promoting Christianity. It seems unlikely that the apparent Christian imagery is simply pagan imagery which later became adopted by Christianity.

Andrew Criddle

yalla

Confirming mountainman's comment re chi-rho at post #17


http://www.forumancientcoins.com/cat...s.asp?vpar=765

Ptolemaic Kingdom, Ptolemy III Euergetes, 246 - 220 B.C.

"GB40897. Bronze drachm, Svoronos 964, SNG Cop 171, VF, weight 67.906 g, maximum diameter 43.3 mm, die axis 350o, Alexandria mint, obverse horned head of Zeus Ammon right, wearing taenia; reverse PTOLEMAIOU BASILEWS, eagle with wings closed standing left on thunderbolt, filleted cornucopia left, chi-rho between eagle's legs; near perfect centering, slightly grainy surfaces; $450.00 (€373.50)"
My emphasis.

avi

Thanks Andrew, for your input, always appreciated.

I am unable to share your enthusiasm for the notion that this mosaic exhibits "some Christian influence".

I don't wish to beat a dead horse, but, can you possibly elaborate what there is about this mosaic that suggests to you "apparent Christian imagery".

Andrew if I had written, that, the proximity of this mosaic to Stonehenge, leads me to suggest an influence of pre-Roman religious practices in its construction, wouldn't you scratch your head, and say to yourself, "what is this guy thinking?"

I see absolutely NOTHING, zero, nada, in this mosaic, that would lead me to posit any kind of religious fervor of any kind, not buddhism, not mithraism, not zoroastrianism, nothing. To my untrained eye, the mosaic simply represents, artistically, the image of a man, so obviously important to the owner of the villa, and nothing more. I see nothing about the image of the man depicted, or his surroundings, which suggests any component of christianity, or its predecessor, judaism.

When you write, that it is difficult to discriminate whether this is an imperial Roman figure, or an image of Jesus of Capernaum, I marvel, for I see nothing in the figure's face, clothing, or, hair which would suggest someone born in Bethlehem, Palestine, 2000 years ago. I know that there was some argument about Jesus' father having been a Roman soldier, but, isn't that idea just a tad far fetched?

Europeans may not like the image of a semitic, Palestinian jew, as their saviour, but that's what and who Jesus was, not some sort of aristocratic, hellenistic figure, tall, with fair skin, and blue eyes, looking for all the world like Alexander's cousin, as we see depicted in this mosaic.

In my opinion, Andrew, it seems highly improbable that there is any religious component to this mosaic. I am keen to learn what it is about this mosaic, the image itself that is, that leads you to conclude that there exists within it, some sort of Christian influence.

avi