Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 01-06-2009, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

None of this says or suggest that Eusebius and the two Egyptians mentioned were excommunicated at Nicea, does it?. Exiled, yes. But not excommunicated?

As I understand it, three people (Theodotus of the Laodicean church, Narcissus of the church in Neronia, and Eusebius from the church in Caesarea of Palestine) were specifically excommunicated at the Synod of Antioch some months before Nicea....

At least Eusebius was at Nicea, something must have happened, eg some dispensation from Constantine in an effort of conciliation.

Eusebius of Caesarea is not the same as the Eusebius of Nicomedia condemned at Nicaea.

spin · 01-06-2009, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

As I understand it, three people (Theodotus of the Laodicean church, Narcissus of the church in Neronia, and Eusebius from the church in Caesarea of Palestine) were specifically excommunicated at the Synod of Antioch some months before Nicea....

At least Eusebius was at Nicea, something must have happened, eg some dispensation from Constantine in an effort of conciliation.

Eusebius of Caesarea is not the same as the Eusebius of Nicomedia condemned at Nicaea.

Shit, when did you discover that?

spin

Roger Pearse · 01-06-2009, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Eusebius of Caesarea is not the same as the Eusebius of Nicomedia condemned at Nicaea.

Shit, when did you discover that?

Some of us never got confused. Be more careful in future.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Orion_Man · 01-06-2009, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

We know of the Councils of Nicea

"Councils of Nicea?" Was there more than one Council at/of Nicea?

Quote:

all through those critical years where they argued about whether Jesus was god, man, or spirit - so (haw!) they made him all three: The Trinity.

They did? At Nicea?

Could you show me where in the actual promulgations or decrees of Nicea that Jesus was there made to be man, let alone spirit, and that those attending the council of Nicea actually were intent to, and did, take up the question of the nature of the Trinity, let alone defined the Trinity in terms of Jesus being god, man, and spirit?

May I ask what it is besides what you heard in church that informs your claims about Nicea and what went on there? Is it direct acquaintance with the Council's decree? Anything from the scholarly literature on Nicea and the Ecumenical Councils?

Jeffrey

There were two council of Nicea's.

At the time of Nicea orthodoxy was winning amongst Christians but many other sects of Christianity remained,however the didn't have the following that orthodoxy did.Keep in mind when I say orthodoxy I' don't mean so by today's standards..There was much debate as to what Jesus was,check out the Nicean creed.Jesus was always seen as some kind of deity but the idea of the trinity didn't come until after Nicea.

Huon · 01-06-2009, 06:55 AM

My translation of a excerpt of Migne :

All the bishops of the Council subscribed to the Symbol, except a small number of arians. At first, seventeen refused their approbation. Later, their number dropped to five, Eusebius of Nicomedia, Theognis of Nicaea, Maris of Chalcedon, Theonas and Secundus of Libya.

Eusebius of Caesarea, who had, the previous day, fought against the word Consubstantial approved it and subscribed to the Symbol. Even, he wrote to his Church to teach his people the motives of his consent, and sent them two Symbols ; one, which he had written himself, and of which he grants that the council had nothing to add, except the word Consubstantial, the second being that of the Council, with an explanation of the word.

From the five opponents, three yielded, fearing a possible banishment, Eusebius of Nicomedia, Theognis, and Maris. The definition of the council had been brought to Constantine, and this prince, admitting that this unanimous consent of so many bishops was the work of God, received it with respect and menaced with exile those who would not accept to subscribe. It is said that he had given an order of banishment against Eusebius of Nicomedia and Theognis, but it is sure that this order was executed only after the council, and for another occasion.

Eusebius of Nicomedia subscribed only through the persuasion of Constantia, sister of the emperor, and he confessed only by mouth the faith of the Church, without accepting in his heart ; this appeared in his subscription, when he made a distinction between the profession of faith and the anathema which was appended at its end ; as he was persuaded that Arius was not as the Fathers believed, since he (Eusebius of Nicomedia) had a better knowledge of him (Arius) through his letters and his conversations. Philostorgius, an arian author, does not conceal the fraud used by Eusebius of Nicomedia and Theognis in their subscriptions, and he says clearly that they inserted a iota in the word 'omoou'sios changing it into 'omoiou'sios , that is, similar in substance, instead of same in substance.

Constantine complains in a letter which we still have, that he was shamefully misleaded by the tricks of Eusebius of Nicomedia, and of having brought to success all the plans of this double-dealer. This prince banished Arius, and exiled him with the priests of his party to Illyria, where Arius stayed until after the death of Constantia, circa 330. Apart the person of Arius, the council condemned also his writings, especially his Thalia and his other songs ; and the emperor, adding his authority to that of the Church, declared by an edict that all the writings of this heresiarch should be burnt, and that the people who should be convicted of having hidden them should suffer a death sentence. The anathema pronounced against Arius was broadened against all those who had been excommunicated by St. Alexander, among whom the deacon Euzoïus, since then arian bishop of Antioch, and Pistus, who was installed on the seat of Alexandria by the arians.

Secundus and Theonas had the same fate as Arius ; they were anathematized and deposed by universal consent, since they were guilty of blasphemas against the doctrine of the Gospel. Only these two refused constantly to subscribe to the Symbol of Nicaea, so, they were exiled in Illyria with their leader. Secundus had made some ordinations after his deposition, they were dismissed by pope Julius.

spin · 01-06-2009, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Shit, when did you discover that?

Some of us never got confused. Be more careful in future.

About what? I haven't got a clue what you're on (about). Perhaps you have doubts that Eusebius of Caesarea was excommunicated by the Synod of Antioch or that he participated at Nicea. Or are you saying that when Jeffery mentioned both Eusebiuses ("Eusebius of Nicomedias and, for that matter, Eusebius of Caesarea") he didn't really want to know about the one from Caesarea?

spin

Roger Pearse · 01-06-2009, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

My translation of a excerpt of Migne :

Erm, can we have a reference? What is being translated?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 01-06-2009, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Some of us never got confused. Be more careful in future.

About what? I haven't got a clue what you're on (about).

<yawn> Please don't waste my time.

spin · 01-06-2009, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

About what? I haven't got a clue what you're on (about).

<yawn> Please don't waste my time.

Stop projecting.

spin

Huon · 01-06-2009, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

My translation of a excerpt of Migne :

Erm, can we have a reference? What is being translated?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Extrait du Dictionnaire universel et complet des conciles (deux tomes) du chanoine Adolphe-Charles Peltier, publié dans l'Encyclopédie théologique de l'abbé Jacques-Paul Migne (1847), dont il constitue les tomes 13 et 14.

http://lesbonstextes.ifastnet.com/niceei.htm

Tome II, colonnes 63 à 98.

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01-06-2009, 06:55 AM	#25
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	My translation of a excerpt of Migne : All the bishops of the Council subscribed to the Symbol, except a small number of arians. At first, seventeen refused their approbation. Later, their number dropped to five, Eusebius of Nicomedia, Theognis of Nicaea, Maris of Chalcedon, Theonas and Secundus of Libya. Eusebius of Caesarea, who had, the previous day, fought against the word Consubstantial approved it and subscribed to the Symbol. Even, he wrote to his Church to teach his people the motives of his consent, and sent them two Symbols ; one, which he had written himself, and of which he grants that the council had nothing to add, except the word Consubstantial, the second being that of the Council, with an explanation of the word. From the five opponents, three yielded, fearing a possible banishment, Eusebius of Nicomedia, Theognis, and Maris. The definition of the council had been brought to Constantine, and this prince, admitting that this unanimous consent of so many bishops was the work of God, received it with respect and menaced with exile those who would not accept to subscribe. It is said that he had given an order of banishment against Eusebius of Nicomedia and Theognis, but it is sure that this order was executed only after the council, and for another occasion. Eusebius of Nicomedia subscribed only through the persuasion of Constantia, sister of the emperor, and he confessed only by mouth the faith of the Church, without accepting in his heart ; this appeared in his subscription, when he made a distinction between the profession of faith and the anathema which was appended at its end ; as he was persuaded that Arius was not as the Fathers believed, since he (Eusebius of Nicomedia) had a better knowledge of him (Arius) through his letters and his conversations. Philostorgius, an arian author, does not conceal the fraud used by Eusebius of Nicomedia and Theognis in their subscriptions, and he says clearly that they inserted a iota in the word 'omoou'sios changing it into 'omoiou'sios , that is, similar in substance, instead of same in substance. Constantine complains in a letter which we still have, that he was shamefully misleaded by the tricks of Eusebius of Nicomedia, and of having brought to success all the plans of this double-dealer. This prince banished Arius, and exiled him with the priests of his party to Illyria, where Arius stayed until after the death of Constantia, circa 330. Apart the person of Arius, the council condemned also his writings, especially his Thalia and his other songs ; and the emperor, adding his authority to that of the Church, declared by an edict that all the writings of this heresiarch should be burnt, and that the people who should be convicted of having hidden them should suffer a death sentence. The anathema pronounced against Arius was broadened against all those who had been excommunicated by St. Alexander, among whom the deacon Euzoïus, since then arian bishop of Antioch, and Pistus, who was installed on the seat of Alexandria by the arians. Secundus and Theonas had the same fate as Arius ; they were anathematized and deposed by universal consent, since they were guilty of blasphemas against the doctrine of the Gospel. Only these two refused constantly to subscribe to the Symbol of Nicaea, so, they were exiled in Illyria with their leader. Secundus had made some ordinations after his deposition, they were dismissed by pope Julius.

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