Orthodox_Freethinker

My thesis is that the existence or non-existence of God cannot be deduced from studying the natural world. However, divine intervention, in this case the incarnation of Christ, makes God's existence obvious. Faith is, ultimately, a matter of trust. It is possible that Christ, though divine, came to earth in order to deceive humanity with false promises of salvation. It is my faith which compels me to believe otherwise.

peace.

DBT

Take a broad view of the world, have a really good look at the ultimate result of our 'faith'....what has it produced?
Your faith is not a source knowledge and truth...only of division and conflict.

John A. Broussard

Shucks! If believers can see the Virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich, OF should have no problems at all in seeing teeth here. Given a little encouragement, he should even be able to see the golden earrings Jesus was supposed to have been wearing at the time.

Does anyone know why the pope hasn't made an infallible pronouncement regarding the shroud? That would finally clear the air.

Incidentally, what ever happened to the face towel of St. Veronica--the one who wiped Jesus' brow and got a perfect image of his face. That should provide a check on the shroud.

Maybe all those nails from the crucifixion that are in the reliquaries of Europe would help too. Forensic experts should be able to match them to the marks on the shroud.

Wads4

That it might be an X-ray image is not a foregone conclusion, and as you say, unlikely without the necessary technology. Your way of solving that problem is to invent the availability of such technology by saying in effect that it happened because God-did-it. This is not very satisfactory as a scientific explanation. On the other hand a primitive photograph could have been made by exposure to the sun coupled with the use of various phot-sensitive chemicals which I believe were available around the 13th century, plus touching up with paint as McCrone seemed to think was the case, but which naturally Christians dismissed out of hand as it did not support their ideology. However it was made, in general-any naturalistic explanation is more probable than a supernatural one. If a supernatural event for the shroud was being continually confirmed day-to-day by other supernatural events and miracles then it might be more plausible;-but that seems not to be the case.

Alf

Err.... What has that got to do with it. You don't think medival people had access to bones and teeth?

Alf

Alf

Sarpedon,
Thank you for providing the image.

I would say it is very clearly a forgery. The image is of a european type human. Not someone from palestine and certainly not a jew from Palestine.

True, in modern times you cannot tell jews much apart from europeans. Partly they have mixed with eruopeans and partly they have life styles similar to europeans etc.

However, I am pretty sure that if Jesus really lived, he would look like a typical Jew from that region and not like the typical Jesus image we have today of some caucasian slender person hanging on the cross. Yes, he might be slender but he wouldn't be caucasian.

The face looks more like european - possibly some form of greek god or some such.

It does appear to me to be the imprint of a statue. The shroud was probably used to wrap a statue of a greek-style god image. It does not look like the face of a jew from that region at that time.

Alf

Wads4

From the image on the shroud I have deduced that Jesus was a Swedish Viking.

Orthodox_Freethinker

Did you even think before making this post? What reason would a forger have in producing a false image of Christ's finger bones and teeth? Analysis of the shroud has shown that the image of Christ was not painted on.
What technology was there available that could have procuded an X-ray image?

Peace.

Orthodox_Freethinker

That isn't the enhanced image of the shroud in which the details become more clear.

Peace.

Sarpedon

How about....Money? Money from people who will buy his books. Money from newspapers who will pay him to print articles. Money from advertisers who buy commercial slots on TV specials about how JESUS was real and DIED for your SINS, REPENT!

What made Jim Bakker sell timeshares to his holy resort? Money. Why did Kent Hovind open up his "creation museum?" Money. Why did Hubbard invent Scientology? Money. Its Money Money Money.

Notice how my explanation does not involve magic, or invisible beings, or supernatural events. People made it to take money from other people. Again, much more plausible. See my previous post on the subject (which, I'll note, you seemed to ignore entirely)

Religion--A fool and his money are soon parted.

Would you pretty please post us an image or a link to this so-called 'enhanced' image?

Until I see said image, I will not be able to answer this question. I will try if you show it to me. I think that there are plenty of reasons available to the naked eye to doubt the shroud, like, for example, the fact that Jesus does not appear to have a top to his head, or that his face looks like an image from straight on, rather than a print of a face that has had a cloth wrapped around it. Try this simple experiment. Put thick make-up or charcoal on your eyelids, your nose, your lips, your ears and around your hairline, then press a white cloth against your face, so that the imprint is transferred. Be sure not to move the cloth and to press it firmly down. Take it off and look at the relative distance between the features. Compare it to the shroud, and then stop posting these silly things.

Now here's a counter question: IF Jesus really did come back from the dead through a divine miracle WHY was this miracle accompanied by a blast of harmful radiation? Are all miracles accompanied by blasts of high energy radiation? Is this the real reason Moses didn't live to see the promised land, because of all the X-rays he was exposed to during his career?