Godless Raven

So they are all upset because the trvial location was changed from the name "Baptism Site" to "Baptism Church" by another group?

Toto

No it's not. The idea that aliens built the pyramids is the stuff of late night radio, for entertainment purposes only.

But there are scholars with credentials who believe that literature about Jesus dates to the second century. It is a minority position, but entirely within the realm of possibility and probability, and does not violate any laws of physics.

I would note that Earl Doherty does not hold this position, and mythicism does not depend on such a late dating of the texts.

aa5874

It makes ZERO sense talking about "fringe view" when dealing with people who may be atheist and when actual DATING is being considered.

A "fringe view" or "majority view" is NOT proof of anything.

You are CONFUSING an "observation" with "PROOF".

There are NO, ZERO, historical documents about a Jesus of Nazareth who was baptized by John the Baptist that has been dated by paleography to the 1st century.

P 46, the Pauline writings, are dated by paleography to the late 2nd to 3rd century and that is NOT even a "fringe view".

P46, the Pauline writings do NOT contain a baptism story of Jesus by John the Baptist.

The Gospels with baptism story as found in Codices are DATED by paleography to the 4th century.

There is ZERO writings dated by paleography to the 1st century with a baptism story of Jesus by John the Baptist.

mountainman

Are the statements of the Nag Hammadi Codex authors considered to be historical statements about the crucifixion etc?

Did this nailing occur on Earth? I think it did, but in the epoch of the Nag Hammadi Authors.

Minimalist

All you have to do to settle the matter is produce them. The fact that no one has ever been able to do so is a strike against pious fiction.

mountainman

Dont you mean the other way around? The TF for example is an example of and a strike for pious fiction in the historical sense. A later century culprit has already been identified.

Steve Weiss

It doesn't matter how many writings written in the first century that could be produced and authenticated and the authors identified, that still would not be support for the impossible. "Pious fiction" is what sacred books are and will remain so even if someone somehow strikes the mother lode of documents. It doesn't matter how many people attest to miracles; they don't happen.

avi

Thanks, Steve.

There are two meanings (at least) associated with "just":
a. fair minded;
b. "only", or "merely", or "simply".

I prefer to think of you as Steve the Just. (fair minded), not, "little steve".

So, first of all, I apologize for having irritated you. My writing is as feeble as my intellect, and I did not think about offending anyone.

FRinge: yes, I accept that designation, without hesitation. I am fairly confident in asserting:

a. that a majority of "Tea party" members in USA, have never read one word by my favorite, genuine, Tea party hero: Thomas Paine. The fact that I have read his writings (Common Sense), by definition, places me in a distinct minority within USA (literacy rate approaching "just" 80%), and the fact that I admire Paine's work, while despising the writings of the slave owners--Jefferson/Monroe/Madison/Washington/Franklin,
places me VERY DEFINITELY, in the "fringe" category. I don't enjoy being thought of as fringe, but I acknowledge the accuracy of the appellation.

b. with regard to the extant manuscript evidence, I am unaware of any documents earlier than P52, often claimed, on the basis of palaeographic interpretation, to date from the middle to late SECOND century.

c. With regard to your (excuse me, here, Steve, but this is ass backwards) request that I furnish evidence, proving that there is no extant document, written before the second century, allow me to defringe for a moment, and claim, in harmony with the moral majority, that it is for YOU, Steve, whether just, or unjust, to furnish evidence refuting the notion of exclusively second century authorship, by producing JUST one, single, papyrus document dating from the first century..... HAVE YOU such a document, or are you just(ly) just whining?

The other, oldest gospel text, that I am aware of, is the gospel of Thomas, found in fragments at Oxyrhynchus, dating from 130-250, as confirmed by the Coptic translation, unearthed at NagHammadi.

avi

Juststeve

Avi:

"Just" I intend in the sense of "only" or "merely", no other meaning is intended. When I first went to a forum the name "steve" was taken, hence "juststeve" was born.

Steve

avi

Juststeve:
Have you some evidence of a 1st century papyrus document?

avi