Vorkosigan

Jiri, in 1 Cor 11 Paul clearly says he recieved it from the Lord. Probably that accounts for why the writer of Mark attributed it to Jesus....

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  11 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
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  and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
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  In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
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  For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

I don't think there is any logical problem here.

Vorkosigan

Malachi151

It still seems odd to me. Isn't this the only case where Paul attributes words of any kind to Jesus?

Clivedurdle

Does this not say that God told Paul about Jesus?

jgibson000

Since Homer, if not before, and especially after he was equated with Apollo, and certainly, since the in the reign of Seleucus, son of Nikanor.

Then there are those pesky anthropomorphic representations of, and altars dedicated to, Helios at Rhodes and Corinth, not to mention mention Thalamai, Elis, Megalopolis, Mantineia, Kleonai, Apollonia (in Illyria).


I hate to say this, but you are once again showing yourself to be woefully under informed on things you like to pronounce upon.

May I suggest that before you make another pronouncement about the nature and character of Greek gods, you get hold of and digest Timothy Gantz's Early Greek Myth (or via: amazon.co.uk).

You might want also to have a look at Pausanius who describes Helios' cult at Guide to Greece (or via: amazon.co.uk) 3.20.4 and other places, as well as the Suda.

JG

Solo

If Matthew constructed the story knowing both Mark and Luke, why would he drop "the blindfold" ? Obviously, it had a function there ! Any ideas ?
Also, does not 'profeteuo' seem a bit trivial in the context ?

Jiri

Steven Carr

Richard Bauckham in 'Jesus and the Eyewitnesses' argues that details would be added if they were familiar to readers, and ommitted if readers were not familiar with them.

So, as there is no methodologyfor historical Jesus study which works, it is up to you if you prefer the no-details=familiarity arguments or the details=familiarity arguments.

Malachi151

This is a convenient line of argument, with no evidence to back it up of course. I like the, everything that WASN'T said about Jesus by Paul are things that EVERYONE knew about Jesus. lol

See, this is why I say again that this field of study is horrible academically, it's filled with fruitcakes.

Buckham DOES have a PhD after all....

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/bauck1.html

Diogenes the Cynic

The verb translated as "betrayed" in 1 Corinthinans 11 is paredidoto, from paradidomi, which means "handed over, delivered, given up." While an implication of betrayal is possible, it's not necessary and the verb could be used for delivering mail as easily as for betrayal.

There are numerous other uses in the NT but the one Steven may have been thinking of is Romans 8:32:

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The verb translated as delivered is the same verb (selectively) translated as "betrayed" in the 1 Corinthians verse. Since in Romans, Paul uses the verb clearly to refer to the "deliverance" of Jesus by God, and since the 1 Cor. verse gives us no context to necessitate an inferrence of human "betrayal," there is no particular reason to assume that 1 Corinthians 11:23 should not be translated as "the night on which he was delivered up [by God]" rather than as "the night he was betrayed," which tendentiously infers a reference to a narrative element of the Gospels which is not necessarily implied by the text.

Hell, Paul uses the same verb to refer to himself in that very same verse: "...that which also I delivered unto you..."

Cege

I'll provide the "betrayed" passage since it's not provided by the author of this thread, or by you. (TIA didn't work for me for this time.) It would be so much easier (and interesting) for me if the subject matter was provided a citation rather than just a general reference that might not be immediately recognizable.

1 Corinthians 11:
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

This passage has Paul saying that not only did the Lord reveal it to Paul, but Paul had also revealed it to the Corinthians when he was there with them: that Jesus was betrayed on the same night that he broke bread with and shared wine with the apostles at Passover in Jerusalem.

Acts and the letters to the Corinthians describe Paul's stays in Corinth--the first time for 18 months--where he was "teaching them the word of God." Acts 18:11

The Corinthians, to whom the letter is addressed, had heard the story of Jesus' betrayal by Judas directly from Paul. At least, that is what the passage containing the "betrayed" phrase says.

I don't find any NT passages that state anyone except Judas betrayed Jesus. If there are verses that state God betrayed Jesus, I hope they'll be provided for discussion by anyone who holds the opinion that Paul states it was God who betrayed Jesus.

Cege

Thank you for that explanation. I see that the translation is selective.

John 3:16 is familiar to lots of people: "For God so loved the world, he gave his only son..." Is the word translated "gave" also paredidoto? The meaning would seem to be similar if not the same, since the verse is taken to mean that God sacrificed/delivered son/Jesus, although it doesn't imply a betrayal situation.