Godless Wonder

I probably come off as an asshole sometimes due to my views on faith -- I consider faith to be the worst invention of mankind in the history of the world, and really cannot understand why anyone thinks faith is a good idea unless they have either been subjected to indoctrination (brainwashed) as a child or else they are an idiot. If that makes some people think I'm an asshole -- and I'm sure it does -- so be it. I try to call it like I see it. The concept of faith is idiotic as far as I can see, and so far nobody has been able to show me why it isn't. I'm a little ticked off that I have to live in a world that appears to be populated mostly with escapees from a mental institution. Yeah.

How's that for a rant?

Plognark

True, very good point. Let's just say it's been a frustrating week and i'm feeling on edge. Let me rephrase:


Here's the thing, from my perspective:
When I say 'hostile', what I mean (and I think this came across harsh because I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning) is that I refuse to continue apologizing to people for holding a different world view than them.

By being polite, constantly saying "of course you're world view is valid, mine is just different" and trying to be as civil as a veteran foreign diplomat and restrain my honest opinions I feel that i'm giving a completely false impression of how I feel, and it seems to give many theists i've spoken with the impression that my non-belief is weak and ill-formed. This very often leads to the preaching and conversion attempts; things i'm just completely tired of hearing.

The truth is that I don't think these beliefs are valid. I think they are potentially dangerous, repressive, and anti-progress and anti-intellectual. I feel that history demonstrates this, and I can easily back my opinions up with cold hard facts.


That being said, I don't try to run out and convert people. I would like to, I would like to yell at people fo their illogical supernatural beliefs, but I recognize that I have no right to condemn someone for their beliefs, just as they have no right to verbally assault me and condemn me for mine.

If they bring it up, and i'm feeling up to it, I will discuss it, and I will have a dialogue on these beliefs with them, but I don't go out of my way looking for victims to assault and convert. The sad fact is that so few of the theists i've emt actually want to exchange ideas, they just seem to be looking for a fresh convert.
Any little sign of intellectual resistance on my part is often viewed as open hostility, and once it becomes apparent that i'm not an easy mark they move on to greener pastures. There's no real desire for dialogue there, they're just looking for another sheep to fold into the flock.

As a summary, of sort, i'm tired of constantly feeling ashamed of using straight logic to run my life. I'm tired of acknowledging and validating supernatural superstitious beliefs in others, especially when they are dangerous. It's a sad fact that many of the holy books paint the infidels and heathens as the worst of the worst sinners on earth. There's little I can do about this, and I can't devote my entire life to trying to change the views of the entire world on atheists. I don't have the time, the inclination, or the willpower to monitor my every action to portray the ultimate kind loving atheist. I do what I can manage, talking to people who are interested, and engaging in debates online in the hopes that some sense can reach the lurkers, but there's only so far I can go.

If my non-belief makes me evil and mean, well, so be it. I can't change my entire life just to suit those who can't stand that someone might think differently about god than they do.


At any rate, i'm starting to ramble and this is getting very long winded. Thanks for reading my brain dump

Edited to add: Woo-ha, look at those run on sentences!!!

Richard1366

Godless Wonder,

Please don't hold back, tell us how you really feel...

PS. I fully agree with you

dado

yawn.

Heathen Dawn

I reserve that position for chemical, biological and atomic warfare.

I was indoctrinated with atheism as a child. I won’t discuss the second possibility you mentioned.

If only Tercel were reading this ... poor Tercel.

(for those who don’t know, Tercel is an Eastern Orthodox Christian who left IIDB after being told by an atheist he ought to be in a mental institution for holding his beliefs)

dado

<insult deleted>

this does nothing to further discussion or understanding: all it does is insult self-thinking people and taint atheism in exactly the same manner pat robertson taints x'ianity.

Anitra

Did I say anything about "you've got to respect everyone's beliefs"? No, I did not -- I explicitly said that ideas and actions were always open to challenge and criticism. I will get more explicit -- you can tear an idea apart with your teeth, jump on it with hob-nailed boots, and kick it into next Tuesday, and I will not say a peep about "abuse." I may disagree with you, but I'll argue about your ideas, not about your right to believe them.

By all means work to promote the most accurate knowledge and the most rational action, as well as you understand it. But you can disagree with an idea without attacking the person who holds the idea. You can disapprove of, passionately oppose, an action without condemning or attacking the person who did it.

I speak publicly about issues of homelessness and social justice. I am passionate about it. People I know have died. People I know are going to die. I am very definite about what I disagree with.

But I want to succeed in making changes -- therefore I do not begin a speech with "You stupid jerks" or the like. I am trying to win people over, trying to educate them.

I do not believe in the supernatural, myself. I don't just consider it unproven. I consider naturalism to be the only foundation for rationality and conflict resolution by dialogue. I also believe in freedom of conscience and freedom of speech. I will say what I think and say what I disagree with. But no disagreement I have with anyone's ideas, values, or behavior would justify my violating my ethics and treating any human being abusively. Ideas I will criticize mercilessly. I will condemn harmful behavior. I do not condemn persons.

We are not all going to believe the same things at any time before the heat death of the universe. From what I read of history, societies with a monolithic worldview stagnate and die. Having different points of view around is good for us. There's nothing wrong with conflict. But conflict can be handled maturely or immaturely. You do not have to agree with someone in order to understand them; you do not have to respect a person's beliefs in order to respect the person themselves.

Anitra

Categorizing people into groups and extending the qualities of some persons in the group to apply to the whole group is not rational thinking. Fundamatheists are not typical of all atheists any more than fundamentalists are typical of all Christians.

There are flaws in ideologies that do justify and encourage harmful behavior, but generally, the attitude comes first and the beliefs are adjusted to fit the attitude. A fundamentalist who decides that there is no God, unless he changes a lot more than his ideology, does not become a freethinker -- he just becomes a fundamatheist. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our gods -- or the lack of them -- but in ourselves.

Starboy

As far as I can tell the country has become a nation of chicken shits.

Starboy

Plognark

Alas, many people make the jump to take criticism of their beliefs as a personal insult. Human nature, I suppose. Unfortunate.