Toto

Josephus

But the footnote goes to a google book site in Holland that will not work for me.

DCHindley

It refers to Whiston's Dissertation #6

TO PROVE THAT THE FRAGMENT OR EXTRACT OUT OF A HOMILY CONCERNING HADES BELONGS TO JOSEPHUS, THE JEWISH HISTORIAN, AND WAS BY HIM PREACHED OR WRITTEN WHEN HE WAS BISHOP OF JERUSALEM, ABOUT THE END OF TRAJAN

2. Let us now come to our fragment concerning Hades, still extant; and search for the internal characters, and external testimonies, as to its age and its author; whose contents are, for certain, very admirable, greatly affecting, and of the highest importance to mankind. And first for the internal characters.
(1) The general doctrine of the intermediate state of souls in Hades, between death and the resurrection, is here the very same with that of the first ages of the gospel; though that doctrine gradually dropped in some later ages.
(2) The temporary punishments inflicted in Hades on sinners not yet hopeless, by angels allotted to that office, in order to their entire reformation and complete recovery, sect. 1, is very like the doctrine of Hermas, a writer of the apostolic age; not only as to punishments in this life, but as to those in Hades also, Vis. 3.2,7; Simil. 7.23; 8.3, 8; 9.6, 9, 13, 16. Part of this doctrine has been long ago lost also.
(3) That most primitive doctrine, which Dr. Grabe, in his Spicilegium, sect. 1, p. 353, declares to be not only the doctrine of Enoch, but of the apostles, and of the church apostolical, is clear in this fragment, sect. 2, that none of the wicked, whether demons or men, were then cast into Gehenna, or hellfire; nor indeed should be cast into it until the day of judgment; as in Matt. 8:29; Jude 9; Enoch, sect. 6; in the Authentic Records, 1. p. 265; all before or in the first century; the torments they undergo beforehand arising rather from the sense they have of that misery, and what they must expect at the last day, than from the actual feeling the torments of hell before it, sect. 4, though this doctrine was soon, in good measure, dropped also among Christians.
(4) The good are here described as going at their death to the right hand, into light; and the bad to the left hand, into darkness; and that through a gate also, sect. 1, 3, like the accounts 4 Esd. 7:13-14; 8:12; Matt. 23:13; 25:30; all before or in the first century.
(5) The good, as soon as they are dead, are here conducted by angels; and this to a place called Abraham’s bosom, sect. 3, as in Luke 16:22-23, and Constitut. 8.41; in the first century.
(6) Here is mention made of the chaos or great gulf interposed between the righteous and the wicked in Hades, sect. 4, as Luke 16:23ff., in the first century ; where the sight of the good in a happy state, while they are themselves excluded out of it, increases the misery of the bad, as Luke 13:28, in the same century.
(7) Here the bodies in the grave are compared to seed sown, and to bare grain, that fructifies again, sect. 5; and the reasoning about the resurrection is much like that of St. Paul’s, 1 Cor. 15:37-38, and that in the Apostolical Constitutions 5.7: both in the first century.
(8) The expression here used of ependusamenos, sect. 5. being clothed upon with a glorified body at the resurrection, is St. Paul’s also, 2 Cor. 5.2, in the first century.
(9) The descriptions of the person and office of Christ in this fragment or homily are these: that he is Theos Logos, God the Word, in distinction from God the Father: and that he is the Judge of the world, by the appointment of the Father, sect. 6, as John 1:1, and Acts 16:31; which are most primitive and apostolical descriptions, and free from all the philosophical notions and terms of the latter ages.
(10) The descriptions of the punishments of Gehenna, or hell, as distinct from Hades, by an unquenchable fire, and a never-dying worm. sect. 2,6, are exactly those of our Savior himself, Mark 9:44. 46. 48. in the first century.
(11) St. Paul’s words, citing a text out of the Old Testament, now lost, or corrupted, are here set down verbatim: that the happiness of heaven will be such as eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man, the things that God has prepared for them that love him, sect. 7, as 1 Cor. 2:9, in the first century.
(12) The citation here made of some words of our Savior’s, not contained in and of our Gospels, Eph’ hois an heurō humas. epi toutois krinō par' hekasta; boa to telos tōn hapantōn. In whatsoever state I shall find you, in that I will judge you; as the end of all things proclaims to us, sect. 8; contains a double mark of original antiquity. For the citation itself is in Justin Martyr, and that for our Savior’s own words, as in this place; and that very probably out of the Gospel according to the Hebrews or Nazarenes, as this its citation by Josephus most probably implies. See Grabe’s Spicileg. 1.14, 327. And this name by which our Lord is here called, the end of all things, is a direct imitation of the latter part of his name thrice in the Apocalypse, chap. 1.8; 21.6; 22.13, where he is styled the beginning and the end. This is a plain indication that the author of this fragment or homily had seen and owned the Apocalypse of St. John. Both which characters perfectly agree to the circumstances of our Josephus, who certainly lived until the reign of Trajan, and several years later than the writing the Apocalypse. The allusion to which is the very latest character of chronology that I have observed in this homily.
(13) The doxology at the end of all. To God be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen, is the very doxology of Peter, the apostle of the circumcision, twice, 1 Peter 4:11, and 5:11; and once of St. John, the beloved disciple. Apocalypse 1.6; both Jews of the first century.
(14) The nature of this fragment or homily is like that of the apostolical letters of St. Paul, who at their conclusion, whatever his premises were, almost constantly adds moral and Christian exhortations for practice; and just thus does our author conclude this fragment or homily also, in a serious and practical exhortation to the Greeks or Gentiles his hearers, sect. 7,8: which I esteem another character that it belonged to those earliest and most serious times of Christianity.
(15) To conclude this head of the internal characters; the style of this fragment or homily is, for certain, almost entirely Hellenistic; which is the known Christian style of the apostolical age; and lasted properly in the church no later than the martyrdom of Polycarp, somewhat before the middle of the second century. Nor is there, I think, the least internal character later than the first or beginning of the second century. Nor do the entire contents for certain agree to any other time whatsoever.

Let me just say that Whiston's parallels and his conclusions are a wee bit "speculative."

DCH

la70119

Excuse me, but the Ancients or at least some of them didn't particyularly like chroniclers making things up.

Lucian on Historiography:

No, you asked a LOADED question: "Could he have gotten it from gMark????" Just like those disingenious Truther websites who find holes in the US Government's Official 9/11 Conspiracy Theory and then ask pointed questions that direct people into believing their even more unbelievable conspiracy theory is true.

Whatever source he got it from, it is probably now EXTINCT. And even so, the source he used may have been unreliable (see Lucian, above).

Well of course I do! It's there in his writings...

If he called himself a Prophetic Historian engaged in Inspired Historiography, do you think he really never would have expressed shame or anger over how Romans treated Jews??? Do you think he would have hesitated when it was politically correct to do so???

BECAUSE HE WAS THE ONE WHO ORDERED HIM KILLED!!!!! :angry: :banghead:

And it's GOING to remain unanswered, until they dig something up in another ancient rubbish heap in Egypt.

Well maybe Richard Carrier can apply Baye's theorem to Josephus.

Just don't hold your breath.

maryhelena

How about the life of 'Paul' being drawn from the life of 'Josephus'.

Neil Godfrey had a blog post re the shipwreck parallels:

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My own list:

Paul and Josephus:

Both were Roman citizens
Both were shipwrecked on their way to Rome
Both spent part of their lives in Rome
Both were a ‘thorn in the flesh’ of their own people. Paul was accused by the early Christians of teaching ‘apostasy’ from Moses (Acts 21:21)- Josephus was viewed as a Jewish traitor.
Both Paul and Josephus were Pharisees.
Both spent time as Roman prisoners.
Paul was originally named Saul. Titus Flavius Josephus was formally Joseph ben Matityahu.
Josephus was from a priestly line and had royal Hasmonaean blood. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin - the tribe designated to stay with the Aaronic priesthood.
Paul was a former persecutor of Christians. Josephus had been an enemy of Rome.
Paul said that circumcision was not required for Gentile Christians. Josephus likewise maintained that non-Jews did not require circumcision in order to stay among Jews.
Paul was 'caught away to the third heaven', Josephus had prophetic dreams.
Paul made a defence of Christianity before Agrippa 11. Josephus appealed to Agrippa 11 to attest the truth of what he had written in his history of the Roman/Jewish wars.
Paul and Josephus had a friend named Epaphroditus.

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For parallels between JC and Paul - link to an earlier thread.

Paul as Jesus Reboot
http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=311968

Duvduv

Yes, , I am aware of the connection to Acts there, but I was wondering about the case od the epistles.

aa5874

The author of Acts appears to have used the works of Josephus and the Pauline authors appear to have USED the same Acts.

Duvduv

Please directc me to where I can see that the author(s) of the epistles were working with Josephus?
On the other hand, with all the inventions found in "Josephus" I wouldn't be surprised.

andrewcriddle

The Discourse on Hades is almost certainly not by Josephus. It may be by Hippolytus.

Andrew Criddle

Duvduv

AA, where do we find evidence that the authors of the epistles integrated things they found in Josephus?

Duvduv

I guess it is still pretty much an open question as to whether the authors of the epistles were directly influenced by anything in Josephus. I have still not found anything dealing with this subject.