Doug Shaver

According to the story, they were not innocent. Since the story is fiction, you have to judge it according to what it actually says, not according to what you guess would have been the case if it were true.

You're right, it's not.

I have no idea what you mean by "internal evidence elsewhere." According to the story, they lied when they claimed to have given everything they had to the church. That is the presumptive reason for God's having struck them dead.

The solution is to stop treating fiction as if it were history.

Solo

The story is almost certainly fiction, and better still Lukan fiction. Has anyone noticed Luke's inordinate relish in seeing people tormented in the hands of the avenger ? Am I the only one ? How about Paul on the road to Damascus ? Ok, get this one (which I think tops them them all for sheer bloody sadism) :

'Dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue', ....hmmm. what would we call that - 'a request for minimum relief ?' ..... REJECTED !!! :angry:

I wonder if how many have found this story an exhibit of eschatological obscenity. (I am probably not the only one: Bertrand Russell in Why I am not a Christian said he was bohered most by the revenge motive in the Christian ethical system).

Best,
Jiri

aa5874

That is the solution for the NT Canon even for stories that appear plausible.
Essentially the NT Canon merely confirms that people had names in antiquity.

The mere fact that the story of Ananias and Sapphira is in Acts 5 shows that it was plausible in antiquity to believe such events could have happened.

But, it is the moral of the story, the subliminal message, that is significant. People who believe that Acts is the word of God or is fundamentally history will be expected to take note of the event and act in a manner to avoid instant death.

Julio

Why would a Christian in possession of a normal brain stand up in a forum and defend this absurd tale as something literal?
I've observed to those that in a real story the main actor would have a part represented by some speech.
It is not the case of Ananias.
He is simply liquidated without expressing a single word.
And to make matters worse, I always ask what happened to the money!
The man and wife died suddenly and were brutally buried in a hurry within the first three hours, without contacting family or authorities.
What happened to the cash?!...

DCHindley

Not sure what you mean by "internal evidence elsewhere", but I'm kind of surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that the book of Acts specifically says that the Jerusalem faithful held "everything in common". The only other Jewish group(s) of this period we know lived communally were the Essenes, Therapeutae and the DSS sectarians. In fact, among the DSS sectarian scrolls, several different communal arrangements are to be found.

It seems that some of these communal groups required all the new members hold their property in the community's trust (it was turned back to them if they washed out of the group). As they progressed through the rites to become full members, they took ever more serious oaths before God to obey the tenets of the group. Once they did this, perhaps the property became the property of the community, as they would rather die than betray their oaths.

It has been suggested that Annas & Saphira had betrayed one of these oaths. Any sort of duplicity in these matters was grounds for expulsion.

This discussion should be heading in the direction of the relationship of the early Jesus movement with Essene, Therapeutae or DSS sectarian beliefs on the basis of similar organizational structure, not whether we approve of the implied ethics of this tale.

For those who spit on the ground when postmodernism is mentioned, this is a perfect example of the interpretation of ancient historical relics with 21st century minds, without even being aware of it. Just be glad the residents of the past do not judge you by their standards, or you would have an eye, tongue or hand lopped off for your blasphemy!

DCH (lunch break, boss ...)

Julio

The "internal evidence" is simply the behaviour of the holy ghost in all other references across the gospels.
There is no inference that it would be that aggressive, ready to kill for money or property.
The case of Peter having been forgiven for a grosser fault suffices.

bacht

Exactly, it's theocratic communism, analagous to the Exodus, and echoing similar stories in the Pentateuch about disobedience in the wilderness. It's legendary anyway, didactic rather than journalistic, an idealized re-telling of life with the apostles.

Toto

This would take the discussion off in a different direction, and I'm not sure what could be said. Did early Christians copy the organizational structure of the Essenes? Did 2nd century Christians imagine that earlier Christians were like the Essenes? Is there any way to tell?

All attempts to link the DSS to early Christianity seem to have floundered on a lack of evidence.

David Henson

God granted the apostles the ability to forgive or retain sin. (John 20:21-23) This gave them great insight as to what was really going on. They knew, from the holy spirit, what was in the hearts of people.

After Pentecost, 33 C.E. there was a fund set up for the needs of believers in Jerusalem. Contributions were made when the price of land or houses were sold and voluntarily donated. (Acts 4:34-37)

In the case of Ananias and Sapphira they were out to impress people with how much money they were going to give, so they sold the field and pretended to give all the money when they were only giving part of it, keeping it for themselves. Influenced by Satan they not only lied but witheld promised funds for the sake of impressing people.

aa5874

But, whether or not there were people called Ananias and Sapphira the story, as it is in Acts 5, is fundamentally FALSE or a lie.

It is not realistic that people who lie about money will be struck down by some Jesus and his father in heaven.